Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

BIOMASS => General => Topic started by: Fiddlers on November 14, 2009, 10:04:46 PM

Title: Accumulator choice
Post by: Fiddlers on November 14, 2009, 10:04:46 PM
Hi all, I'm making final choices for my log burner installation. I'm pretty set now on the 25Kw Orlan boiler, mostly because it takes up to 0.5m logs and Kotly sell it at a very keen price :-) However, the choice of thermal store isn't quite so straight forward... since the store will be in the garage I'll need one with decent quality insulation. Whilst I plan to insulate the garage roof I know the losses will be much higher than if I installed it in the house, which I can't do.

It seems there is a choice of 2 contenders; Jaspi (ThermoStore) or Akvaterm. As best I can tell, they are both made in Finland, both have 100mm insulation, both have options for 1-2 coils, spare hatches, extra tappings, etc. Both have nearly identical dimensions (for the 2000l anyway) and cost nearly identical amounts (about 2150+VAT) .  The only real differences I can see are:

1. There's more documented installations of Akvaterm.
2. The Jaspi standard DHW coil is stainless and has a 25l/min flow compared with the Akvaterm copper coil rated @ 34l/min. I'm not sure how much this will help me since the water is quite soft here...
3. An additional coil is 362 for the Jaspi and 233 for the Akvaterm. I plan to install a preheat coil

Does anyone have practical experience of the Jaspi? Is the stainless coil worth the extra? any other thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

Title: Re: Accumulator choice
Post by: KLD on November 15, 2009, 05:54:54 PM
100mm insulation will not be enough for an installation outside the heated building. I'd definitely plan for boxing the tank in and adding lots more insulation. Someone here has put his store in the attic and boxed it in with 2feet of woolly stuff all round :-)
Also, take care with the pipe connections. Any horizontal or even rising pipes connected to the store will zap heat out. There are stores that have pipes rising inside the tank volume, and all pipe entries  are located at the tank bottom. (There may be details on the Wiki ( page).

Title: Re: Accumulator choice
Post by: Fiddlers on November 15, 2009, 10:32:56 PM
Thanks Klaus, I was planning on installing the tank as is and seeing what the heat losses are to judge what sort of insulation I'd need to add. It could easily be partitioned in within the garage, since it will be in a corner anyway. Doing that would allow me to insulate with lots of rockwool in the walls and ceiling. Then all I'm looking at is pipe losses as you rightly point out. Do you have any experience with products/techniques that would help here?
Thinking aloud, it might even be worth getting a cheaper tank on the basis that I'll have to build a well insulated room around it anyway....

Title: Re: Accumulator choice
Post by: Poolguy on November 16, 2009, 07:48:04 AM

You have put you finger in the main difference, but there are others?
Akvaterm use copper coils which are many times more efficient conductors of heat then S/S of Jaspi.
If you are contemplating solar this is really important, as you need to get as much harvest as possible and to my mind the S/S just doesn't cut it.

Akvaterm is a Superior product in terms of build quality, but sadly you'll only find that out when the unit has been in service for a number of years.

For my money I would go with Akvaterm as that is all they do - build accumulators, whereas jaspi are essentially a wood burner manufacturing company and their accumulators are an extra.

Up to you but I've looked through both and really there is no decision to make from my stand point.


Title: Re: Accumulator choice
Post by: Fiddlers on November 16, 2009, 08:08:29 PM
Thanks Andrew, that confirms my current thinking :) This really is a choice I have to get right first time...

The one thing that worries me slightly is according to the delivery instructions from Peter de la Haye the tank is delivered on a truck (without a palette) and no fork lift/crane is available for off loading. I'm presuming the lorry comes direct from the factory. Has anyone had experience of off loading from the truck? what works? I was thinking of a high lift palette truck, something like which should go to a height of 820mm. I hope this is high enough to go level with the truck, then manoeuvre the tank from the truck onto the pallet truck and down. Getting it into the garage is another problem but at least it's all on the same level  ;D
HSS do a lifting platform rated up to 454Kg that also looks like it might do the job... or possibly even better a scissor lift

So many toys  :laugh:

Title: Re: Accumulator choice
Post by: billt on November 17, 2009, 09:18:12 AM
As the factory is in Finland the lorry just comes from the docks, probably Middlesborough.

My solution to this problem was to get the tank delivered to a local builders merchant who have a lorry with a Hiab crane. They redelivered it to me and I moved it with a combination of small tractor with pallet forks and a normal pallet truck.

Delivery was the unsatisfactory part of dealing with Peter de la Haye. For the amount he charged he should have used a contractor who had a vehicle with lifting gear.

Title: Re: Accumulator choice
Post by: mike85 on November 17, 2009, 10:53:55 AM
Hi Fiddlers,

Navitron also supply Akvaterm cylinders and can arrange delivery on our tail lift lorry. Please let me know if you would like a quote.


Title: Re: Accumulator choice
Post by: lightfoot on November 17, 2009, 11:26:27 AM
Hi Fiddlers,

Navitron also supply Akvaterm cylinders and can arrange delivery on our tail lift lorry. Please let me know if you would like a quote.


It's good to see Navitron are now offering Akvaterm stores ;) - I don't mean to be pedantic, but I noticed, both above and on the main Navi site, that you call them cylinders, rather than accumulators or thermal stores etc (as you do with the other Navi/Newark thermal stores) - which maybe confusing to some people that don't know the product?

I'll go back in me box now  ;D



Title: Re: Accumulator choice
Post by: Poolguy on November 18, 2009, 04:21:00 PM
I can also offer you the Akvaterm product but with the addition of the special 4th and 5th coils if you want to take advantage of the '4 seasons' concept or the 'Swimming pool heating' option.

Its a design that I have made in collaboration with Akvaterm to overcome some of the special problems of Low grade heat collection and the many problems associated with pool heating.



Title: Re: Accumulator choice
Post by: ewart on January 07, 2010, 12:19:28 PM
Can i ask if anyone has an any experience of buying directly off Kotly Poland.
(spotting the start of this thread).
I am based in Malvern and i am interested in buying the Orlan Super 25kW (Eco Angus have branded this the Angus Super 25kW).
The price i have been offered including freight and taxes is a bit better than i have been offered by Eco Angus.
However i am concerned about paying through their web site for what appears to be purely a polish sales web site.
What is their service like?
Is it a problem if you want spares?
I am worried that if i need spares and decide to go to Eco Angus they may not be interested if they find out i did not buy the boiler through them.
It is also confusing in that i am also looking to buy an Akvaterm tank so i need to consider the package price from Eco Angus as opposed to 2 suppliers Akvaterm Finland And Kotly Poland.
The last spanner in the works is that i notice on Eco Angus's web site they now have a grant through the Carbon Trust which i can use against the business i run which would help.
Any help/comments appreciated. 

Title: Re: Accumulator choice
Post by: Brandon on January 07, 2010, 05:26:28 PM
kotly's service is excellent, no worries about dealing with them.

The spares / warranty issue however is valid, try speaking to paul at wessex boilers, he sells the vigas boilers which are the same boilers, he carries the spares, full warranty back up, and is a thoroughly nice bloke.

(usual no financial blah blah, just an impressed customer.)


Title: Re: Accumulator choice
Post by: ewart on January 08, 2010, 12:19:09 AM
When i looked at the web site they represent 14 different manufacturers but Vigas is not one of them....unless i am missing something!
The huge number they represented gave me added cause for concern and made me nervous as i wonder how tight an affiliation they have with any of the manufacturers.

Title: Re: Accumulator choice
Post by: billt on January 08, 2010, 09:47:57 AM
The Orlans on Kotlys site look to be identical to the Vigas boilers, so I imagine some badge engineering is going on, as is common in most industries.

I bought an Atmos from Kotly 18 months ago and they were very good; delivered dead on time, which is more than most UK companies can manage.

I worked on the assumption that they are large scale distributors with no particular affiliation, and would not necessarily be a good source of after sales support. That's the trade off you make for saving large sums of money.

Title: Re: Accumulator choice
Post by: ewart on January 10, 2010, 12:20:38 PM
No they are definitely separate but i admit they look similar.
If you check with the Vigas distributors the factory is in Slovakia.
The Orlan Super is made in either Poland or Czech Republic (Kotly confirmed they have 2 factories either side of the Czech/Polish border) and you can see the exact match either on
Eko Vimar website
Or Eco Angus website who sell in the UK (they call it the Angus Super).
I have double checked the Carbon Trust grant Eco Angus have which i can put against my business so the price differential has now swung in their favour so i am going to go ahead with this as i should have the spares back up as and when required.