Navitron Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum

Announcements & News => Media Watch => Topic started by: Mudman on November 18, 2009, 12:59:40 PM



Title: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: Mudman on November 18, 2009, 12:59:40 PM
plans to have no need for planning permission on small turbines up to 15m in height- sounds good to me!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/nov/17/planning-permission-turbines-solar


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: martin on November 18, 2009, 01:06:38 PM
Unfortunately, much of this is at  a "teapot" level of total misunderstanding of what precisely constitutes a green technology - hells teeth, the Grauniad has even used a picture of a Swindlesave (will someone tell the eejits in government that the major maker of teapots has gone broke........) whistle


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: Mudman on November 18, 2009, 01:10:00 PM
yes- and the picture makes it abundantly clear that it's badly positioned!


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: Ted on November 18, 2009, 01:37:04 PM
And only systems that are MCS accredited will be allowed under permitted development, everything else will continue to require planning permission - see my other thread.


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: dhaslam on November 18, 2009, 02:00:53 PM
The Irish planning exemption for wind turbines is also flawed.   It still has a condition that  removes the exemption where there is adverse environmental impact.   It means that at least one installed turbine complying with the  conditions has had to be removed.     


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: Ivan on November 20, 2009, 12:52:50 AM
....and windsave are back in business, due to new investors, aren't they?


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: Ted on November 20, 2009, 09:17:10 AM
Might be.

Their website now says:
Quote
For media enquiries only
please contact Julian Bailey or Natalie Biasin from Kreab Gavin Anderson
who are a PR outfit.


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: martin on November 20, 2009, 10:07:16 AM
would just about sum up the present government's grasp of renewable technology - bug*er all! wacko


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: dhaslam on November 20, 2009, 11:08:24 AM
I found this in a Google search for "windsave"


www.ecohuddle.com/forum/thread/1013/mr-w-seriously-funny-and-so-true


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: Justme on November 20, 2009, 11:49:23 AM
I just found this

Quote
6. To comply with the new rules, the equipment and its installers will be expected to meet the standards of the Microgeneration Certification Scheme. This is a system of certification that the Government has set up in partnership with the microgeneration industry other organisations representing consumer interests. The scheme's purpose is to ensure the quality and reliability of installations and build consumer confidence in the new technologies.


So in my opinion,

To me that says the equipment & install needs to meet the specs but not actually be registered. If you can prove that your equipment & install meets those specs then it should be ok.


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: Ted on November 20, 2009, 01:29:32 PM
That's an interesting interpretation. Unfortunately it also says this in para 2.15:

Quote
Permitted development rights for wind turbines and air source heat pumps will only be
accorded for equipment installed by an installer who has been certificated through
the scheme using a certificated product.

which is a lot less ambiguous.

We would have to wait for the final legislation, I guess, to see if there will be any wriggle room.


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: martin on November 20, 2009, 01:30:02 PM
the "microgeneration industry" WAS Swindlesave - it's a special weasellism only used by them and their apologists........... ::)


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: djh on November 20, 2009, 01:44:01 PM
I can understand some requirements for wind turbine products and installation. There've been enough amusing stories on here about blades and towers flying through the air that it's easy to see some nasty accidents may happen if there is widespread free-for-all installation of turbines. The question in my mind is whether there's some method that would assure me that my neighbour's turbine was safe but still allow well-executed DIY jobs etc.

I don't find it as easy to see a rationale for ASHP though. I suppose I might get narked if the neighbour installed one right by the fence with its exhaust vent blowing air onto my garden chair, but I don't see the relevance of product or even installer certification to that scenario.


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: martin on November 20, 2009, 01:57:21 PM
Rather like the problem of noise transmission through structures from roof-mounted teapots, I'd be strenuously against a neighbour having one  if it's a semi-detached or terraced house attached to mine.
 If I live miles from nowhere in an unattached property, and am sufficiently deaf/insensitive to have "the stair rods rattling in a blow" (as reported by one disgruntled Swindlesave owner), or to mount a clanking girt superannuated 'fridge in my loft, or outside my bedroom window, then I don't think it's anyone else's problem but my own - unfortunately most people don't have that luck, and I think on noise alone, a "free for all" is utterly bonkers - there may well be deaths!- not from flying blades, but people driven to violence by constant noise from their attached neighbours' properties whistle


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: renewablejohn on November 20, 2009, 02:21:02 PM
So according to this new proposal I can build my 5 bedroom traditional windmill as permitted development so long as the overall height of the windmill is less than 15 metres high.

Sounds good to me I have always wanted to live in a windmill.

http://www.norfolkmills.co.uk/Windmills/billingford-pyrleston-towermill.html


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: martin on November 20, 2009, 02:26:05 PM
Unfortunately it'll have to be accredited by MCS, BRE, and assorted other bloodsucking leech organisations which'll probably increase the building-costs twenty-fold whistle


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: Ted on November 20, 2009, 02:40:22 PM
I understand the issues concerning noise and vibration.

The point is that there are existing procedures for someone to raise a complaint about a statutory nuisance and get redress.  Just what you would do if a neighbour played loud music at 3am.  If someone has put up a turbine that causes a nuisance then a planning enforcement officer from the council should be able to get the thing taken down. In fact this will still need to apply in the case where an MCS accredited turbine still causes a problem.

I don't see how presenting renewable technology as 'something different' that requires all sorts of special treatment is in any way helpful.


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: Justme on November 20, 2009, 02:50:08 PM
That's an interesting interpretation. Unfortunately it also says this in para 2.15:

Quote
Permitted development rights for wind turbines and air source heat pumps will only be
accorded for equipment installed by an installer who has been certificated through
the scheme using a certificated product.

which is a lot less ambiguous.

We would have to wait for the final legislation, I guess, to see if there will be any wriggle room.

Yeh I saw that bit too, I prefer my quote lol.

At least we can hope the official version is also drafted badly.


So according to this new proposal I can build my 5 bedroom traditional windmill as permitted development so long as the overall height of the windmill is less than 15 metres high.

Sounds good to me I have always wanted to live in a windmill.

I like your style.


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: Ivan on November 21, 2009, 01:53:45 AM
renewablejohn,

You're right...but it has to be MCS-approved. That'll cost you 450 000.


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: Ted on November 21, 2009, 10:02:05 AM
renewablejohn, MCS only covers systems up to 50kW so a 51kW windmill would be outside their scope.   whistle

I hope you've read the parts in the consultation doc that relate to biomass systems on agricultural premises - Chapter 5.  But permitted development will only be available for 'waste' generated on that farm and not for any that is shipped in from elsewhere.  I'm sure there might be ways around that.  ;)

You'll also be able to erect a building to house a hydro turbine without the need for planning permission and there's nothing in there at present to say you couldn't also live in it.


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: Justme on November 21, 2009, 11:00:46 AM
How long from now do you think it will take them to bring this in?
(and then here in Wales we will have to wait 2-3 years for them to translate the doc & change a few minor things before we get it too)


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: martin on November 21, 2009, 11:13:59 AM
There's also the other joker in the pack to consider - there is every likelihood that we'll get a tory government in the next few months (no government in the position the present one is in financially would WANT to be re-elected), which will mean enormous cuts in many things, and a period of reorganisation whilst they transfer the quangos, initiatives and other assorted useless leech organisations over to those run by their buddies, instead of those run by Tony/The Gorgon's cronies.......... whistle


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: Ted on November 21, 2009, 11:42:53 AM
Apparently there is no such legal entity as "England" any more - it is "England and Wales". Despite this the Act that is forcing this change to permitted development only applies to England so, yes, we in Wales will have to wait a while for this to change here. 

I've already written to Jane Davidson AM about it. The very least we should have is a consultation run in parallel with the one for England.


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: renewablejohn on November 23, 2009, 11:37:39 AM
renewablejohn, MCS only covers systems up to 50kW so a 51kW windmill would be outside their scope.   whistle

I hope you've read the parts in the consultation doc that relate to biomass systems on agricultural premises - Chapter 5.  But permitted development will only be available for 'waste' generated on that farm and not for any that is shipped in from elsewhere.  I'm sure there might be ways around that.  ;)

You'll also be able to erect a building to house a hydro turbine without the need for planning permission and there's nothing in there at present to say you couldn't also live in it.

Ted

I presume the 50kw limit is only electrical output there is nothing to stop any additional power being used direct to drive machinery

As for on farm AD you need a very big farm to justify AD using only your own waste.


Title: Re: Wind turbines and solar panels could be put up without planning permission
Post by: Justme on November 23, 2009, 02:38:51 PM
MCS only covers systems up to 50kW so a 51kW windmill would be outside their scope.   whistle




I presume the 50kw limit is only electrical output there is nothing to stop any additional power being used direct to drive machinery


[/quote]

I tghink you missed the point. Over 50kw & MCS does no apply so build a big one & they cant make you use MSC kit & installers. But then I guess the exemption would also not apply.l