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Author Topic: GSHP UFH Circulation problem  (Read 13620 times)
StBarnabas
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St Barnabas Chapel (2009)


« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2010, 09:53:28 AM »

Hi StB,

That brown stuff in the filter looks a bit suspicious. It could be microbial slime or an excess of plumbers jointing compound.

It would be wise to keep an eye on these filters as more of the slime could appear. Just hope it is not m/slime. (I have seen this in several steam turbine lube oil systems and in fuel oil (red diesel ) tanks.  sh*tfan

PhilR
Phil
many thanks. Interestingly the return filter was as clean as a whistlie so I do hope it is nor microbiological in origin. I have some  more inhibitor which I can add as necessary and I will indeed keep a close eye on it.
Sean
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Gestis Censere. 40x47mm DHW with TDC3. 3kW ASHP, 9kW GSHP, 3kW Navitron PV with Platinum 3100S GTI, 6.5kW WBS, 5 chickens. FMY 2009.
renewablegraduate
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« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2010, 07:12:09 PM »


All thanks for replies
Ted I have tried turning off all the rads and it does not solve the problem. SteveH I am trying to flush the individual loops - getting all of 1 Litre per minute through one of them.


Have just spoken to Stuart and it was obvious that it would be best to post a few pictures.
I have 2 manifolds one in the garage serving the utility room and a larger one serving the kitchen


Kitchen Manifold



Garage Manifold



Pump




seriously that pipework and manifold work is really poor, come on guys have some pride in ones work
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desperate
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« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2010, 07:19:47 PM »

Hallo Renewable grad,

It might have been a bit more tactful to enquire who installed it, no? Wink

Desp
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renewablegraduate
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« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2010, 07:23:48 PM »

Hallo Renewable grad,

It might have been a bit more tactful to enquire who installed it, no? Wink

Desp

it does not matter who installed it, there is no excuse for hep fittings getting used with copper on show like that, renewable energy installations should be of the highest quality not DIY bodges ballspin
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Alan
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« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2010, 08:08:20 PM »

Don't knock it   Hep fittings

7 drain downs / replace last week.

I picked up loads of work last week replacing hep fittings with proper pipe work hysteria

Regards

Alan
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EccentricAnomaly
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« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2010, 09:08:04 PM »

...there is no excuse for hep fittings getting used with copper on show like that, ...

For my education, what's the problem with such a combination?
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Alan
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« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2010, 10:34:16 PM »

I have used 7 layered Phex pipe with the correct inserts and fittings on under floor heating systems.
Absolutely wonderful stuff. Never had a problem.

Last week and about this time last year as soon as it got a bit cold. Hep fittings popped off. Solder and brass compression fittings survived.

Here if at all possible pipe work is soldered. Brass is used on very rare occasions.

Regards

Alan
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renewablegraduate
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« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2010, 10:34:27 PM »

...there is no excuse for hep fittings getting used with copper on show like that, ...

For my education, what's the problem with such a combination?

ive been a heating engineer for 15 years anyone worth there salt in the industry knows that hep is to be used with hep fittings in unseen locations, copper on show always, why would you spend the money on an expensive system and give a finish like the one in the picture, whoever believes that the standard of work is acceptable shouldnt be involved in anything to do with the installation of systems Kiss
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desperate
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« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2010, 11:31:14 PM »

In principle there's nothing  technically wrong mixing hep and copper, but it does make clipping tricky, and looks a bit naff, but I've seen many more dodgy comp fittings than Hep.


Desp
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EccentricAnomaly
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« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2010, 01:01:52 AM »

ive been a heating engineer for 15 years anyone worth there salt in the industry knows that hep is to be used with hep fittings in unseen locations, ...

Remarkably, not everybody on this forum is in the industry but many might want to do some plumbing and would like to pick up useful hints and avoid pitfalls.  You could, like Desperate, have just said that it looks naff without bothering to tell us how long you've been whatever.  Sentences run together without appropriate punctuation or capital letters look naff, too, by the way.

Quote from: desperate
...but it does make clipping tricky...

Am I right in assuming the fittings are large so the pipe finishes up too far from the wall for standard clips?

Quote from: Alan
Last week and about this time last year as soon as it got a bit cold. Hep fittings popped off.

Is this due to differential contraction, do you think?
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marshman
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« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2010, 11:16:11 AM »

Not wishing to get into the "it doesn't look pretty debate" mainly because some of what I have done in the past wouldn't bear close inspection Roll Eyes I would however like to comment on Copper pipe and plastic pushfit fittings.

I have had underfloor heating for 25 years. Never had a leak from any fittings they are all "pukka" brass insert, olive and brass compression fitting - and they all come apart easily when I have modified the system. I have at various times used push fit onto copper - speedfit - hep etc. I would say without exception after a period of time the ones on the hot side have "crept" and started to leak. Yes they are quick and easy but I have reservations about their long term (25 year plus) reliability on hot water systems. I beleive the problem occurs because of the repeated contraction and expansion of the pipework as it heats up and cools down.

I would also like to make the comment that in my opinion the circulation pump for the UFH system should be pumping round the loops all the time and the mixer valve should be the other side. This keeps the loops at a constant temperature with the mixer/bypass valve modulating the supply of fresh hot water to keep the temperature correct. I suspect you really need two pumps. One for the UFH and another for the rads. I know their are differing views on this but as I say I have had underfloor heating for 25 years and have studied how it operates and what works best for maximum comfort for minimum energy!

Just my 2p worth Smiley

Roger

« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 11:21:09 AM by marshman » Logged

3.15kWpk (15xSharp ND210)/SB3000. & 3.675kWpk (15 x Suntech 245WD)/SB4000TL, 10kW GSHP driving Wirsbo underfloor heating from 1200m ground loops. 10' x 7' solar wall (experimental). Clearview 650 Wood Burning Stove. MHRV - diy retrofit. Triple glazing.
renewablegraduate
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« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2010, 12:08:36 PM »

ive been a heating engineer for 15 years anyone worth there salt in the industry knows that hep is to be used with hep fittings in unseen locations, ...

Remarkably, not everybody on this forum is in the industry but many might want to do some plumbing and would like to pick up useful hints and avoid pitfalls.  You could, like Desperate, have just said that it looks naff without bothering to tell us how long you've been whatever.  Sentences run together without appropriate punctuation or capital letters look naff, too, by the way.

How long I have been whatever ?. This clearly shows the fact that anyone I have come across in the industry would not accept that standard of work. That was the only point I was trying to make. As for punctuation, don't make me laugh this is a renewable forum not a writing club. I have written five books on engineering so settle down would you.  whistlie
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StBarnabas
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« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2010, 02:48:20 PM »

For the record this was installed by a "professional plumber". It is not a DIY bodge, (just a bodge of a different sort) but to be honest I would have designed the system very differently if I had done it myself, as I tend to be a perfectionist. The bit that was installed by Desp looks far nicer, all brass and copper with very neat joints. I'm more worried about the overall design of the system and when I install the UFH system in the chancel next year this will be a good opportunity to redesign the system.
Sean
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Gestis Censere. 40x47mm DHW with TDC3. 3kW ASHP, 9kW GSHP, 3kW Navitron PV with Platinum 3100S GTI, 6.5kW WBS, 5 chickens. FMY 2009.
renewablegraduate
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« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2010, 03:08:54 PM »

Im glad to hear it Sean, I can see how you may be worried about the overall efficiency and design of the system. Maybe tidy up the initial pipe work when doing the renovations to the property?. Wouldnt cost much to tidy up them manifolds.
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desperate
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« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2010, 07:38:08 PM »

Personally when I install an airing cupboard say, the last thing I do is to run copper out of sight and then switch to hep, all that does is to make the hep fittings inaccessible, why not install all the manifolds, valves, pumps etc onto copper and then switch to hep just before it goes below floor level or above ceiling etc, any problems are easily found then. Plumbing should be designed first and foremost for utility and maintenance rather than looks.

Mr EA as you say standard clips don't have enough clearance to the wall for hep fittings and a manifold built from push fit is a very wobbly affair that needs a lot more clips than a nice rigid copper assembly. Also I find it a bit of a fight to insulate the fittings satisfactorily.

For what it is worth we use hep by the mile and clipped up properly it hasn't given us grief..............yet help


all the best

Desperate
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