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Author Topic: Seem to be over the main problems, but still not right..........  (Read 11693 times)
knighty
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« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2011, 11:57:04 AM »

don't worry about the pipes icing up - just check the ice isn't going to drip and cause problems when it defrosts....

you can insulate the pipes, but if you do you'll have to wrap the insulation up tight (gaffa tape?) to stop the moisture getting in :-)


glad to hear it's all up and running :-)


EDIT/p.s. do you have any photos of the icing up ?
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rogermunns
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« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2011, 03:21:24 PM »

Here is a pic of the icing up at it's worst.

When I went down into the basement I was surprised to see that although the compressor was running the UFH side had lost some temperature. I didn't check for flow in the flow valves (I would have had to go back upstairs); instead I  turned everytning off 'cos I was concerned.

Then I took this photo.

I'm a bit thwarted now 'cos the well water temp. is now 'only' 10,5deg. where I am pulling the water out (and at the bottom of the well the water is arriving back at 4,5deg.). Luckily the weather is not cold and we can wait for the well temperature to recover.

I think the fall away in UFH temperature might again be due to air troubles.


* R0016056gimp.JPG (92.58 KB, 450x338 - viewed 275 times.)
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titan
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« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2011, 05:50:59 PM »

Roger,  Kensa mention about flat battery  starting a system for the first time, www.kensaengineering.com/downloads.asp    9th down the list on the left may be worth a read
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rogermunns
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« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2011, 06:42:27 PM »

Thanks Titan, that is very interesting and perfectly correct for our house - although we didn't start from as low as 5deg. C.

 
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Mostie
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« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2011, 06:48:30 PM »

The frost on the suction accumulator (middle) may not be cause for concern, its job is to stop liquid refrigerant from entering the compressor (which would be nasty for the valves) however, this frosting will affect the discharge (outlet) temps from the compressor as the two are related, you may want to check with other owners about the difference in the flow and return temps from the ground side, is the required flow rate being met?
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2x Solis PV = 1.875 kW, Mitsubishi inverter heat pump. Yorkshire Boiler Stove.
knighty
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« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2011, 07:16:17 AM »

as above, it's probably normal... but you might want to have it checked out anyway....

if it's going to drip and leave a puddle then it's probably not supposed to be like that...

it could be caused by a hundred different things.... refrigeration systems need to be in exact balance to work properly... it might just need gassing up a bit ?

I'd call out a refrigeration engineer to check it if I were you.... try to get an old guy to come do it - a lot of the young ones don't know what they're doing in my experience...


if the accumulator is icing up, then there must be some liquid refrigerant making it's way back into it and evaporating there... I'm not sure if this is normal - or if it should only happen as a "fail safe" when something isn't right.... all my accumulators run on the high pressure side not the low pressure side, so I'm not familiar with that kind of system

is the thinner pipe coming out of the compressor (the high pressure / liquid pipe) hot ? it should almost be too hot to touch Shocked
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rogermunns
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« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2011, 07:52:58 AM »

Knighty.  Thanks. But I live in rural France and (a) can't afford the 'artisan's charges) and (b) would not know who to ask. Or how to find out. Indeed, any thoughts of doing any modifications to my system are difficult - only when you've lived here can you really appreciate how different commercial life is is France compared to UK.

Best way for UK-ers to understand the difference is to imagine what UK was like 40 years ago. That's France today in many respects.
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rogermunns
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« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2011, 08:07:42 AM »

This morning on switch-on I've got error Po07. It says in the pdf manual that this is related to (in my case) well water temperature.

The file shows the message means that temperature is below [EP07] + 3deg. C. But then another table shows values for EP01  ...  EP06 but not EP07.

My incoming temperature is showing 9,5deg. C.

So I'm not sure what to do. And everything was going so well ...........

Any help, please? 
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rogermunns
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« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2011, 08:26:16 AM »

I again tried to turn on and this time, no error message, fired up OK.

So at the moment, I'm happy.

One thing that's happened that I do not understand is;

on Saturday I ran for 4hours 35mins with all seven UFH loops open. At 4 hours I turned off because of icing up of pipes (I now realise this is normal) but also of the two black canisters. See photo a few posts ago.

on Sunday I ran for 3hours 15mins with just three UFH loops open. I turned off because I was going to bed. There was no sign of icing of the canisters.

And, as I said in an earlier post, when I had canister freeze the outlet temperature on the UFH side had fallen. 
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knighty
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« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2011, 08:55:07 AM »

chances are it will stop running the compressor every few hours or so to defrost the well water heat exchanger - or at least to make sure it doesn't ice inside...  which will give the ice/frost on the compressor etc.. a chance to defrost too :-)


I think you'll just have to run it for longer and see how it goes,,, refrigeration is a big of a mine field... a slight imbalance in the system can cause all kinds of weird and wonderful problems... which seam totally unrelated to the actual cause of the problems!
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longstroke
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« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2011, 09:23:44 AM »

Too slow typing this! Knighty has allready replied, but I hope this is of some use.

The lack of icing up on the sunday is due to the compressor not working so hard as you only had three loops open so you will probably find that the compressor was cutting in and out and the ambient temperature was enough to prevent external icing.

I've no idea what refrigerant gas you have in the heat pump but different gases have different properties and the data tables for the gas would be able to tell you what temperatures/pressures to expect on the suction (LP) side, this info may be in the user handbook and hopefully a knowledgeable heat pump owner/operator/installer/engineer will be able to give more specific advice.

It relates to the LP suction pressure, which would be affected by not having enough gas in the system as mentioned earlier by Knighty, but could also be caused by a duff expansion valve, inadequate evaporation due to too lower well water temps which in itself could be due to well capacity not being enough to keep up with the heat demand of the heat pump when running 7 loops, or possibly incorrect setpoints allowing the compressor to drag the LP pressure down too low.

However, the icing up is not necessarily incorrect - there are plenty of correctly gassed up fridge systems which operate with iced up LP sides due to the gas the're running and the operating temp required.

It is (or at least I find it can be) very difficult to judge how much gas a system needs due to the large number of variables involved. Trial and error tends to be the only option with systems that its not possible to pump out and refill with the correct weight of refrigerant gas which hopefully the manufacturer has been nice enough to specify.

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wyleu
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« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2011, 11:41:16 AM »

Best way for UK-ers to understand the difference is to imagine what UK was like 40 years ago. That's France today in many respects.

Isn't that the utopia the Daily Mail is constantly harking back to?
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knighty
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« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2011, 12:04:14 PM »

rogermunns, if you buy yourself a set of refrigeration gauges (40, ebay) and an infra-red thermometer thingie.... you could post all the pressures/temperatures up on the refrigeration engineer forum and they'll probably be able to help....  there's a lot of very smart and well trained people on there.... and if you do need something doing, they might even be someone local to you on there who could help :-)

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/
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rogermunns
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« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2011, 12:12:45 PM »

Thanks Knighty, I'll look into that.
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rogermunns
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« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2011, 12:14:00 PM »

wyleu:

Yeah, but don't believe it!

For example, here in France copper plumbing comes in 10mm and 12 and 14 and 16 and 20 and bigger.

Waste plastic pipe in 32mm, 40, 50, 60, 80, 100, 150 and bigger.

But, round here, shops and even supershops carry little stock and very poor stock control. So all the popular sizes go. Especially in the Summer  - practically all the French get into their Renaults / Citroens / Peugeots and head for their French holidays in the same three weeks - so factories close and shelves empty. Very few places open on Saturday afternoons, Sunday, a lot have Monday off too.

But we love it. Mild, short winters and under 5 hours door-to-door, flying to Brum. to see family. Unless they are over here taking the rays.
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