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Author Topic: Lithium ION Car Batteries  (Read 14018 times)
tange179
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« on: August 01, 2011, 10:56:15 AM »

Hi All,

I watched Top Gear last night, and was surprised that the presenters painted an fairly honest picture about the two electric cars on test.

What however was a little off putting was the info' provided on battery longevity which seems to suggest that in fast charge mode they have a life span of no more than 5 yrs, and at around 7k to replace would make this an expensive proposition.....

Your thoughts are welcomed?

John.
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martin
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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2011, 11:06:07 AM »

It's been one of my major reservations about the present crop of EVs http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,14531.msg162780/ - for all sorts of reasons they just don't make sense - essentially you've got to limit yourself to a 50 mile range to get the things to last a reasonable time, and only slow charge them, which makes them very limited vehicles.
There's the expense of them, the resources used to make and recycle the blessed things, and the likelihood that they'll probably be charged by non-renewably generated electricity - I think they've got a long way to go before making any sense at all - changeable battery packs would appear a "must" so you could do a long journey, and swap batteries en route.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 11:18:45 AM by martin » Logged

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biff
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« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2011, 11:59:40 AM »

same goes for the ebikes,
                           i spent quite a bot of time researching batteries and getting the info to rebuild a lithium polymer 26v x 10ah battery,it would seem that the clever clogs they are,they made the voltage 26volt and i found that trying to get the right combination of sandwitches to land on the 26v was tricky to say the least,eventually i just bought the new battery and had done with it.
   perhaps when i get more experience i will build a 20ah lipo batt and figure out how to keep the board from frying.these ebikes will not lift off unaided very many times before they fry the board so "powers assisted mode" is a must at all times unless already in motion.
  having said all that,they are a fantastic mode of transport,quiet and reliable,light but strong thanks to the lipo battery.lipo batteries for motor cars would be twice the price of the li-on batteries so unless they get a lot cheaper very quickly they will be completly outside the range of affordability.
                                                                         biff
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Brian P
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« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2011, 12:17:09 PM »

I aggree with the option of changeable batteries.
These could be made with LIMITED number of size or performance options.
It would be a bold government or battery manufacturer to make this investment but it could be an investers golden goose !!!
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tange179
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« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2011, 12:22:48 PM »

Would I be correct in saying that the only positive thing going for electric cars is the efficiency of electric motors over petrol/diesel equivalents?

John
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martin
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« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2011, 12:57:47 PM »

- it's more than negated by the losses incurred in storage of electricity, the fact you've got to lug the batteries, and that the electricity has to be generated (often using non-renewables!), add in the "dust to dust" cost of the batteries, both financially and of the planet's scarce resources!
« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 02:00:48 PM by martin » Logged

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tange179
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« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2011, 02:39:19 PM »

Martin, I can see the advantages of a pure electric vechicle as a 2nd family car for short trips where the batteries can be recharged from renewables and zero pollution is a must (eco city zones etc), but as they showed in last nights tv, any distance driving would need careful planning and thus a major disadvantage.

Plug in prius, ampera or other plug in's prehaps would be more useful but I believe the old horse & cart may make a come back at some point in the future  Grin

John.
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Quakered
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« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2011, 03:19:51 PM »

Yep, definitely short journeys only but then I am sure the manufacturers will point out that the vast majority of journeys are very short so make an ideal second car for the rich wanting to make a point whilst only using the 4 litre car for long journeys....(or the executive jet)
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SnaxMuppet
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« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2011, 04:09:16 PM »

Top Gear were reasonably kind to the electric vehicles last night but the BBC is still very anti. Virtually none of the figures quoted were at all correct.

Battery prices are not at all important. The batteries are designed to last the life of the car which is at least 10 years, and if they did need replacing then in 10 years time batteries will be much cheaper and have much higher power density.

Charging is never 8 for a full charge. Even on a normal tariff it would only ever be 4! However, I am on a 100% renewables tariff and I only pay 1.50!!!

The time to charge in normally completely not important as you never sit around and wait as it is normally done overnight when you are asleep.

The fact that the range is 100 miles will be a disadvantage for many however, I have had my Nissan Leaf now for nearly 4 months and in 4000 miles of motoring I have never even got close to running out nor have I had to use my diesel car more than a couple of times. As has been said... it can make a great 2nd car and the hybrids will fill the gap as people's only car until range increases and charging infrastructure builds.

BTW I charge from 100% reneables power so my car is totally 100% CO2 and emissions free except when I do long trips and charge away from home (once an month at most at the moment).
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« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2011, 04:21:45 PM »

"Battery prices are not at all important" - well, they may not be important to you, I suppose an extra 7k every 3-5 years is a mere bagatelle against the depreciation of the vehicle...... whistlie

ALL batteries suffer from over-fast charging, and deep discharges, so what the programme pointed out was that effectively you'd be wise to only charge slowly overnight, and never take the batteries below 50%, effectively halving the already short range.

To be pedantic "my car is totally 100% CO2 and emissions free" should be qualified by "if only considering the recharging, but totally excluding the making and recycling costs of the batteries"

« Last Edit: August 01, 2011, 04:24:08 PM by martin » Logged

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tange179
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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2011, 04:24:02 PM »

SnaxMuppet, what's it like on pick up fully loaded i.e. 4 averaged sized adults?

John.
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cj
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« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2011, 11:56:50 PM »

Fortunately for Martin, there will be no compulsion to have an electric car - for quite some time.

Most cars should have a hybrid  'get you home' option, rather than just battery.

Technological improvements will also be on recycling batteries.  10 year life is quite good for an EV, my 100AH car battery failed last week, supplied last December!

Think how much road tax will be avoided if we all had electric cars. What would they tax then?

Biff, the 26 volt is probably not critical.  I had a 500w in the front hub, and a 1000W in the rear. A controller on the front for a gentle start. When rolling, switch to either 12v, 24v or 36v direct to the rear hub. Obviously this can only be used off-road, but if you can get battery blocks with discreet steps, you may find this will work for you?
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« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2011, 12:13:23 AM »

Hybrids are to my mind every bit as much a bit of "green badgism" as pure EVs - give me the Blue Motion Diesel anyday (simpler, FAR cheaper in all ways, financially and for the planet, if you do the "dust to dust" calculations). As I've said before, we need major leaps in battery technology (which are not on the horizon), major price drops, and swappable battery packs filled using genuine renewable energy, with a good network for the swaps before they are anywhere near a sensible and genuinely green option
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« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2011, 12:53:45 AM »

that must be quite a bike cj,
             i was told that i would get poor performance on a 24volt pack,so as i said i went and bought a new 26volt pack, the whole outfit is quite light and i will see how it does on its runs up and down to the town which is 2 and a half mile away,
   the idea of using stepped voltage like a gearbox is very appealing and to have it going directly into the motor must have been very impressive performance wise.i understand that the inital startup motion would have to be run through a controller but your idea of having both wheels driving is bound to be the best of both worlds, i will make it one of my more important projects to build such a bike when i get my shed completed,(im going to be busy)
  there are a few ebikes round here and i have already been asked to fix a few people up with a similar bike to mine,
          biff
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billt
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« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2011, 07:57:17 AM »

The non existent fuel tax is the only reason that EVs are cheap to run. That is only low because there is an insignificantly small number of EVs. If they start to become popular they will start to be taxed, maybe by road pricing.

For once I agree completely with Martin. EVs make no sense environmentally, economically or practically. They are the motor industries desperate attempt to keep going after the oil runs out. Of course, when the oil runs out there won't be an excess of electricity available to feed these EVs, so we'll have to go back to what most of us did 45 years ago, walk, cycle, use public transport, or stay at home.
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