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Author Topic: Lithium ION Car Batteries  (Read 14021 times)
SnaxMuppet
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« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2011, 11:58:26 PM »

I have to say Martin that I too think you normally talk a lot of sense on most subjects but somehow with EVs you have a blind spot... nonetheless, the spud car was very funny   hysteria
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martin
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« Reply #61 on: August 04, 2011, 12:08:40 AM »

I've heard the design team are working on Mark2 already and are thinking of reviving an old Renault design - one could say it's almost "Dauphinoise"  whistlie
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« Reply #62 on: August 04, 2011, 07:43:54 AM »

Like most new or recycled ideas EV's need to find their place.

I used to be a car nut, especially American motors, and a 3,000+ mile a year cyclist, so hopefully I could see the good and bad of all sides. I still get car & Driver an american car magazine, and remember an interesting article from about 3 years ago:-

New York was planning (probably done it now) to make hybrids compulsory for taxi's. The article referred to interviews with taxi drivers from a Canadian city (can't remember which one, better with numbers than names) which had implemented such a rule already. The Canadian taxi driver reported that his daily fuel bill had dropped from $40 to $13.

Now I know that hybrids don't have much of a benefit for long hauls and motorway driving, but the right vehicle for the task can bring benefits.

I'm also aware that the battery costs would be enormous, but I've always thought that buses and refuse lorries should be electric, since they both endure huge amounts of low speed pull offs, and gentle braking for regeneration - both of which would suit electric power perfectly.

Remember, whatever your thoughts on current battery technology, there really isn't any other type of motor that can match the sheer torque and flexibility of electric motors. That's why the large trains and earth moving equipment use diesel to generate, and electric to move.

Batteries will, I'm 100% certain, improve greatly over the next 10 years. BUT whether they improve enough, that I have doubts about, but let's give them a chance.

You may be interested to see Robert Llewellyn's recent blog showing the installation of his PV system and then using it to charge his Nissan Leaf. That's one enthusiastic man. Gotta love him.

Martyn
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Just call me Mart.     Cardiff: 5.58kWp PV - (3.58kWp SE3500 + 2kWp SE2200 WNW)
brackwell
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« Reply #63 on: August 04, 2011, 11:06:40 AM »

For those wishing to understand the issues this may help.

www.transportenvironment.org/Publications/prep_hand_out/lid/568

"Well to wheel efficiency of ICE 12-17%, of EV 25-30%"
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spaces
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« Reply #64 on: August 04, 2011, 11:33:43 AM »

Interesting that the EV debate re-occurs time after time on here, with the same arguments put forwards by each side time after time - suggesting that one 'side' or the other, possibly both, don't completely grasp the other's points.

I agree wholeheartedly with clockmanFR, the motor industry is both highly cynical and hugely lazy. The difference was that the last time there was a change in technology there was enthusiasm and honesty in abundance, the lack of the Multi-National Corp. The over-weight problem, compounded by batteries, is one I have railed against many times before on this forum.
There simply isn't the tangible benefit for the consumer changing from one tech to the other, there will have to be a crisis to bring about some clear thinking. The Japanese idea of linking up their Leaf to the household electricity, post Fukushima, and using the huge batteries as an energy store makes a lot of sense, albeit only just the tip of the iceberg.

Were there a real saving for Mother Earth by investing almost £30,000 in personal transportation then I feel current EVs would really catch on with the famous and rich - there is an aura surrounding any really brilliant bit of innovation which they love.

I see the motor car as we know it dying a slow, poisonous death over the coming half century with a motorbike-inspired enclosed space tricycle or bike - http://www.nestofdragons.net/ecomobile.aspx becoming the answer to congestion and pollution for commuters who can't/don't use public transport. Since ICE vs battery powered motor has no clear cut winner in the green stakes, both techs will probably exist side by side for many years yet. As I have said before, 300mpg (or equivalent) is not be difficult to achieve with today's tech, it's just not necessary with today's (low) energy prices not taking into consideration the cost on the environment.    

As a wonderful example of how low-tech ideas (with low or zero carbon consequence) often work better or as well as high-tech, I rode back to back in two cars yesterday in stifling heat. The first was delivering gushes of chilled air into the cabin which felt very pleasant. The fact that used cooking oil powered this heat pump ameliorated my concerns with so many workings to provide a comfortable environment, but over-complication would one day render the vehicle scrap well before the body had rotted or engine worn out.

The second car was as simple (though not crude) as a motor car can be, just as comfortable on the road and much more so in the heat. Why? Vast transfer of fresh air which rushed into the cabin through a vent flap beneath the windscreen, combined with variations in side window opening and loads of headroom resulted in feeling much cooler, even though the air temp was 15C warmer than in the aircon. And on stepping out, there wasn't the wall of heat to knock you out... there have been cases of older farmers dropping dead when exiting their super-cooled tractor cabs on boiling hot days as their bodies failed to adjust quickly enough to the temperature difference.

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Simplicity, the ultimate refinement
charlieb
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« Reply #65 on: August 04, 2011, 11:40:10 AM »

And this for thoughts on how wonderfully simple a BEV could be. Four of these and the chasis basically becomes a simple box for carrying people and batteries, with steering about the only mechanism needed (I'll happily concede that the major manufacturers haven't gone for the simple, lightweight option on their BEVs to date, but to be fair they know they have to sell them for tens of thousands due to battery cost.   Also the G-Whizz did do exactly that, but with fairly rubbish batteries).

http://www.proteanelectric.com/products/2/products.aspx     http://www.hybridcars.com/components/michelins-reinvents-wheel-with-motors-25308.html  

Also I agree 100% on using cars (and other transport) massively less. But it's head-in-the-sand stuff to imagine that we're going to jump to a low-mobility society just like that. Not going to happen, so concentrating on EVs (and buying them. Good for you Snaxmuppet) to replace ICEs is a good thing.
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tange179
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« Reply #66 on: August 15, 2011, 02:24:26 PM »

..for anybody who is is interested...found this on utube with regards to the plug in volvo v60 with a diesel motor.....

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M
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« Reply #67 on: August 15, 2011, 03:46:55 PM »

Wow that is a great advert. Wish they were all so simple and clear.

Volvo have chosen to put a mighty powerful diesel engine in that baby. Unfortunately early estimates are for an OTR price of £40k.

Been reading up on these proposed plug-in hybrids, they would be perfect for me and wifey, especially if we could get the odd recharge done when the sun is shining.

Volvo V60 and Prius both out next year, so hopefully might be able to get a 2nd hand one by 2014/15.

Martyn.
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Just call me Mart.     Cardiff: 5.58kWp PV - (3.58kWp SE3500 + 2kWp SE2200 WNW)
smegal
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« Reply #68 on: August 15, 2011, 04:38:31 PM »

..for anybody who is is interested...found this on utube with regards to the plug in volvo v60 with a diesel motor.....



I really like that idea for now.

It's hardly slow either and by my calculations does 148.67 mpg.

No range issues and low emissions, what more would you want?
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biff
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« Reply #69 on: August 15, 2011, 05:44:49 PM »

.i would just love one of those volvo v60s.
                    i would even swap my ebike for one.
                                                                 biff
                               
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charlieb
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« Reply #70 on: August 16, 2011, 09:13:50 AM »

Here's a question:  I've always understood that one of the many advantages of electric drivetrains is that the electric motors are a) cheap, b) powerful per unit size/weight, and c) very good at variable output.  If that's the case it seems to make sense to run the car 100% off the electric motor and use the engine purely for charging the battery ('series', I think).  But nearly all the current batch of hybrids - including that volvo afaict from the advert with no sound -  sometimes use the ICE for traction as well, requiring all sorts of extra gears and clutches, etc. Why?
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brackwell
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« Reply #71 on: August 16, 2011, 09:54:18 AM »

charlieb,

I had wondered the same as also the engine can be tuned for max efficiency at the one revs as in diesel-electric train engines.   I believe the latest Lotus/Proton development is doing just that.     The problem must be that the extra cost and weight of the necessary batteries to achieve the occasional extra power needed is greater than a low cost IC engine.

Ken
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brackwell
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« Reply #72 on: August 16, 2011, 11:38:06 AM »

http://www.lotuscars.com/engineering/en/proton-emas-drivetrain
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EccentricAnomaly
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« Reply #73 on: August 16, 2011, 01:00:14 PM »

Yes, I thought that was disappointing, too. I think it's because the ICE has about twice the power of the electric motor and is really needed for, e.g., overtaking on a fast road.

Personally, I'd like a pure electric vehicle for pottering around locally with the option of an ICE generator on a trailer for longer trips. Could that be done safely? Maybe not a trailer but an exchangeable "boot pod"? Maybe with the option of battery boot pods too which you could swap out to "refuel".
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dimengineer
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« Reply #74 on: August 16, 2011, 04:53:59 PM »

Prius's have now been around a while. What's the battery life looking like now - anyone got any experience. If the prophets of doom are right we should be seeing failures by now. Or was it all a smokescreen?

Its just that I remember when catalytic converters came in, there were prophesies of 3 year life, and "it'll cost at least £1000 to replace". None of which seems to have happened.

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