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Author Topic: Proven turbine problems  (Read 45143 times)
Other-Power
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« Reply #60 on: January 07, 2012, 11:17:27 PM »

Must admit this has given me pause for thought - we are doing a full refurbishment of an off grid property and I'd been told by everyone how good Proven were, "the industry standard" etc etc. Now it was the 6 we were looking at, not the larger one with the shaft failures, but now I'm thinking that Proven were doing so well and almost every supplier I contacted recommended we use a Proven turbine - easily 4 out of 5 did, yet now they are bust! So if such a popular turbine company can have that happen (as it appears at least, over the shaft failures of one model), leaving people with no redress if/when theirs fails (I see Kingspan quite understandably make it very clear that it's nothing to do with them)  the risk of a c40k investment in a system (decision based on the FIT tarrif)  with a turbine that could break a year later and we could just as easily find the company has gone seems very risky now indeed. It makes a 5 year guarantee pretty worthless if the comany does not even exist a month later - which must have happened to some people.

Proven did not go under due to the shaft issues, its business 101's and collective planning delays reducing predicted demand that caused their demise.  The P11/KW6 is a good machine and will still be that way.  The risk is not in buying  a good machine from and LTD company but buying a bad machine from an LTD company.  The chances of a KW6 braking a year after install is very low indeed, further to this, if there was an issue within this time chances are it would be an instalation issue and not a manafactures fault, this comment applies to the time tested P11/KW6 and not the P35.

The P35 machines that are switched off will be back on in the not to distant future, the failure of the shaft can be fixed.

The KW6 should not be coming in at 40k btw.

Cheers

Jon
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numenius
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« Reply #61 on: January 08, 2012, 04:58:34 PM »

"The KW6 should not be coming in at 40k btw." - Thats interesting because we've had 5 quotes following site surveys now and several more ballpark ones from my description and location details of the site, photographs + wind speeds etc, and all are in the close region of 40K  (includes installation, base, tower, inverters, wiring, batteries etc etc) -  who who are the folks who will do all that for a lot less? Out of about 10-12 they've all been closely in that region for a FIT qualifying setup.

Here is just one example:


SMA Sunny Island off grid controller ( 5048 )  -  3,470.73

Batfuse B.01:3EN ( NH1 fuse breaker .)  -  50.00

Battery pack ( 490Ah @ 48V .) 8 x RP-6CS17PS  ( Rolls Solar 5000 series .)  -  4,539.00

Kingspan KW6 , 6KW wind turbine .

( Including turbine , tower , base , cabling & all installation .)  -  26,676.00

SMA Windy Boy 6000 Inverter  -  2,317.00

37,052.73

+VAT

Total : 38905.37



I'd love to hear who the companies are who will do this (in Northumberland) for significantly less please...
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billi
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« Reply #62 on: January 08, 2012, 06:10:40 PM »

Hi ,    i would not go for a windturbine only idea    for off grid    and the quoted battery seems too small  in my opinion in relation to the 6 kw turbine

If your needs are small it might be ok ,   but the battery will be full in no time when windy and empty fast when not windy

Hybrid with PV   , perhaps the smaller Proven    to balance out the system ?

But sure,  the bigger Turbine would do a lot towards heating in winter  bike



Billi

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1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
numenius
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« Reply #63 on: January 08, 2012, 06:42:57 PM »

Hi, yes indeed and this is my dilemna - in fact the more books and forums I read, and the more suppliers i speak to, the less certain I become of which way to go! (Perhaps I should start another thread and get people with actual experience of living with the various systems ideas).

 On the other hand 30-40,000 buys a LOT of generator red deisel, and that has to be said! To me green measures must pay for themselves  (like moving to wood fuel from LPG did for us in our current home) or as near as.  Though I really, really do not want to just be using a genny, it does make you think about how many years worth of electricity we'd get from all that moneys worth of diesel. As posted elsewhere on this forum, FIT seems to  help ensure the few approved systems and installers keep their prices as high as possible, having a near monopoly.

On top of the prices, the installers I have spoken to vary hugely in approach and alleged experience - some claiming I'd rarely if ever ever need my genset on and others that I'd need it weekly, some saying we should go hybrid, some saying that with wind alone we'd have more power than we'd know what to do with ( flyingpig ) and others that we'd only get about half of our needs - since all were presented with the same data for our useage and for the site and mostly quoted the same 2 machines, it leaves you wondering about the industry really, and your left unsure as to which are telling you the truth or actually know themselves. They cannot all be right as they contradict each other, and it's a massive amount of money to just be picking the one who you think is correct then keeping your fingers crossed it goes OK !  
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 06:53:19 PM by numenius » Logged
billi
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« Reply #64 on: January 08, 2012, 06:57:35 PM »

I would advice you , to open your  own thread and describe your situation .....

There are some clever people here ,living off grid since years ....  and we all got through ups and downs  Tongue

But  for me  personally   , if i would spend 40000 for an off grid systhem today for our small home  , i would not need any backup  generator   whistlie, i would even drive an electric car included in the price for most of the year for free

I do not know much about the UK FIT  and how you can install an off grid idea  yourself




« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 06:59:23 PM by billi » Logged

1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
camillitech
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« Reply #65 on: January 08, 2012, 07:29:47 PM »

Hi Numenius and welcome,

Though I really, really do not want to just be using a genny, it does make you think about how many years worth of electricity we'd get from all that moneys worth of diesel.

Not very many, trust me  Grin seven years ago we used to burn around 100lts a week for between 8 and 12 hours of genny operation per day, say 70 hours a week and an oil change every month. That's not including the hassle of getting the fuel into your tank, the repairs on your genny, the noise, the smell and the special wee house you'll need to keep it in. Even if on the face of it the maths looks good you'll still only have power whist the genny runs.

We now have a hydro/wind/diesel set up and probably burn 100lts a year and it was a fecking sight less than 40k  Grin

And Billi is quite right, that battery bank is way too small  Wink

Here's my setup if your interested http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/2008/01/01/powering-the-house/ it's a little out of date now as the Navitron hydro turbine has been upgraded to one of these http://www.microhydropower.com/

Wind alone will not power any house, trust me, we live in a windy spot with a battery bank double the size of your quote and without PV or hydro to supplement such a system you'd be running the genny quite a lot in the summer. Half the size of your turbine, double the size of your battery bank and get SHED LOADS of  PV  Cool

Of course before you do anything you need to do an 'energy audit'  Wink

Good luck, Paul

 
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http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SMA SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 9kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
marshman
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« Reply #66 on: January 08, 2012, 09:33:40 PM »

Hi ,    i would not go for a windturbine only idea    for off grid    and the quoted battery seems too small  in my opinion in relation to the 6 kw turbine

If your needs are small it might be ok ,   but the battery will be full in no time when windy and empty fast when not windy

Hybrid with PV   , perhaps the smaller Proven    to balance out the system ?

But sure,  the bigger Turbine would do a lot towards heating in winter  bike



Billi



I third that!  I had a 300AH battery bank on my Futurenergy FE048 (1kW) before I went grid connected. As Billi says they charged in no time when it was windy so the dump loads just sat there cooking, and they discharged just as quick when there was no wind (and I only had a 1200W inverter). With a 6kW turbine and 6kW inverter the system is 6 times the size of mine so simplistically 300 * 6 = 1800AH for the batteries would still be on the low side.

Roger
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3.15kWpk (15xSharp ND210)/SB3000. & 3.675kWpk (15 x Suntech 245WD)/SB4000TL, 10kW GSHP driving Wirsbo underfloor heating from 1200m ground loops. 10' x 7' solar wall (experimental). Clearview 650 Wood Burning Stove. MHRV - diy retrofit. Triple glazing.
Other-Power
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« Reply #67 on: January 08, 2012, 10:09:56 PM »

"The KW6 should not be coming in at 40k btw." - Thats interesting because we've had 5 quotes following site surveys now and several more ballpark ones from my description and location details of the site, photographs + wind speeds etc, and all are in the close region of 40K  (includes installation, base, tower, inverters, wiring, batteries etc etc) -  who who are the folks who will do all that for a lot less? Out of about 10-12 they've all been closely in that region for a FIT qualifying setup.

Here is just one example:


SMA Sunny Island off grid controller ( 5048 )  -  3,470.73

Batfuse B.01:3EN ( NH1 fuse breaker .)  -  50.00

Battery pack ( 490Ah @ 48V .) 8 x RP-6CS17PS  ( Rolls Solar 5000 series .)  -  4,539.00

Kingspan KW6 , 6KW wind turbine .

( Including turbine , tower , base , cabling & all installation .)  -  26,676.00

SMA Windy Boy 6000 Inverter  -  2,317.00

37,052.73

+VAT

Total : 38905.37



I'd love to hear who the companies are who will do this (in Northumberland) for significantly less please...

Appologies, I had assumed 40k for a grid tie setup. 

I would say the prices above are fair but the battery bank is to small, the P11 is not a toy turbine and when it gos it will need somewhere to put the heat.

I would say for 40k that you should get a 3kW machine and 10kW of PV, a bigger battery bank and a bit of change.

if you do start your own post please PM the link.

Cheers

Jon
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ecogeorge
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« Reply #68 on: January 08, 2012, 10:10:55 PM »

"The KW6 should not be coming in at 40k btw." - Thats interesting because we've had 5 quotes following site surveys now and several more ballpark ones from my description and location details of the site, photographs + wind speeds etc, and all are in the close region of 40K  (includes installation, base, tower, inverters, wiring, batteries etc etc) -  who who are the folks who will do all that for a lot less? Out of about 10-12 they've all been closely in that region for a FIT qualifying setup.

Here is just one example:


SMA Sunny Island off grid controller ( 5048 )  -  3,470.73

Batfuse B.01:3EN ( NH1 fuse breaker .)  -  50.00

Battery pack ( 490Ah @ 48V .) 8 x RP-6CS17PS  ( Rolls Solar 5000 series .)  -  4,539.00

Kingspan KW6 , 6KW wind turbine .

( Including turbine , tower , base , cabling & all installation .)  -  26,676.00

SMA Windy Boy 6000 Inverter  -  2,317.00

37,052.73

+VAT

Total : 38905.37



I'd love to hear who the companies are who will do this (in Northumberland) for significantly less please...
Sorry not read complete thread and no connection with the company but Future energy turbines 1kw (I think max) go for about 900 each. Guyed mast and concrete -what 500 DIY?  Inverter 400  Cable /Switch gear  200.
There -2k per turbine.
You can put 20 up for 40k - wow. Shocked
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Other-Power
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« Reply #69 on: January 08, 2012, 10:18:59 PM »

"The KW6 should not be coming in at 40k btw." - Thats interesting because we've had 5 quotes following site surveys now and several more ballpark ones from my description and location details of the site, photographs + wind speeds etc, and all are in the close region of 40K  (includes installation, base, tower, inverters, wiring, batteries etc etc) -  who who are the folks who will do all that for a lot less? Out of about 10-12 they've all been closely in that region for a FIT qualifying setup.

Here is just one example:


SMA Sunny Island off grid controller ( 5048 )  -  3,470.73

Batfuse B.01:3EN ( NH1 fuse breaker .)  -  50.00

Battery pack ( 490Ah @ 48V .) 8 x RP-6CS17PS  ( Rolls Solar 5000 series .)  -  4,539.00

Kingspan KW6 , 6KW wind turbine .

( Including turbine , tower , base , cabling & all installation .)  -  26,676.00

SMA Windy Boy 6000 Inverter  -  2,317.00

37,052.73

+VAT

Total : 38905.37



I'd love to hear who the companies are who will do this (in Northumberland) for significantly less please...
Sorry not read complete thread and no connection with the company but Future energy turbines 1kw (I think max) go for about 900 each. Guyed mast and concrete -what 500 DIY?  Inverter 400  Cable /Switch gear  200.
There -2k per turbine.
You can put 20 up for 40k - wow. Shocked

ecogeorge, with all due respect, we are talking about a different league to the FE turbine. 

I am sure 20 FE turbines would generate 20 times more and might offer a more modular way of installing.
Maintaining that number of turbines would be some work but doable.
looking at it more now, one could justify the outlay of a larger more expensive inverter for 5 FE turbines, ie 2000.

hmmmmm.....

Cheers

Jon
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StBarnabas
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« Reply #70 on: January 09, 2012, 02:19:06 PM »

Probably very out of date now but I had a quote from Winsund based in Durham for a 6kW Proven system which was around 20k. Might be worth contacting them, though the quote is over 5 years old. They however are willing to fit in with the client. Nick, a colleague of MrsB  installed a 6kW Proven a few years ago and was able to get a considerable reduction by doing a lot of the groundwork himself.
Sean
 
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Gestis Censere. 40x47mm DHW with TDC3. 3kW ASHP, 9kW GSHP, 3kW Navitron PV with Platinum 3100S GTI, 6.5kW WBS, 5 chickens. FMY 2009.
Other-Power
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« Reply #71 on: January 09, 2012, 06:21:14 PM »

Probably very out of date now but I had a quote from Winsund based in Durham for a 6kW Proven system which was around 20k. Might be worth contacting them, though the quote is over 5 years old. They however are willing to fit in with the client. Nick, a colleague of MrsB  installed a 6kW Proven a few years ago and was able to get a considerable reduction by doing a lot of the groundwork himself.
Sean
 

Was this off grid setup?
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ecogeorge
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« Reply #72 on: January 09, 2012, 07:48:29 PM »

Other-power -I take your point but sometimes people need to step back and look at what they are getting for the money.
To spend 40k on one turbine so big when as others have pointed out a mix of renewables may be more cost effective.
I didn't literally mean purchase 20 x FE turbines but 10K to install say 5 FE would be a serious proposition to me , with more deductions for DIY and diy doable ground works.
That still leaves 30k yes 30,000 for pv and batteries.
Ground mount pv -what 2 / watt ??  say 20k for a 10kw install.
We've still got 10k for batteries.
Hmm -what was that phone call-shut turbine down because of a shaft problem, -no more electric today , tomorrow ,next day /week /month oh-they gone into receivership !!
I know where I'd spend my money.
just my 2p.
George.
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biff
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« Reply #73 on: January 09, 2012, 10:17:12 PM »

very good point ecogeorge,
                            a good sensible mix is the road to travel. 40k is a massive amount for one item which cannot deliever on a calm day.
    jon,i am not knocking the price or the turbine but we now know that no one item can deliever it all.we still need pv and even hydro if possible.
                                     biff
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StBarnabas
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« Reply #74 on: January 09, 2012, 10:30:46 PM »

Probably very out of date now but I had a quote from Winsund based in Durham for a 6kW Proven system which was around 20k. Might be worth contacting them, though the quote is over 5 years old. They however are willing to fit in with the client. Nick, a colleague of MrsB  installed a 6kW Proven a few years ago and was able to get a considerable reduction by doing a lot of the groundwork himself.
Sean
 

Was this off grid setup?
No Grid Tie
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Gestis Censere. 40x47mm DHW with TDC3. 3kW ASHP, 9kW GSHP, 3kW Navitron PV with Platinum 3100S GTI, 6.5kW WBS, 5 chickens. FMY 2009.
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