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Author Topic: Backup power supply  (Read 7796 times)
SimonHobson
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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2011, 08:06:24 AM »

If it's supplied by a plug with max 13A fuse, then you don't need a ring - a radial will be adequate as 2.5mm T&E is rated for around 27A (depending on installation method, location and the type of fuse/breaker protecting it). At the supply end, you should terminate the fixed cable into a junction box and use flex to the plug.
I wouldn't bother with "different sockets" (as in keyed or different pins) unless you don't trust other household members to ignore your instructions not to plug other things into them. I think different sockets will be more of a nuisance. Different colour sockets are available in standard designs.
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biff
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« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2011, 11:32:50 AM »

its your choice hobson,
                      doubles in different colour or design will mean no overloading nonsence,,colour code you see simon,,best to be safe,,we have to think of other people using the system. now when a ring is installed it send our precious lecky out to the sockets in equal amounts,,,non of the end of the line symtoms and the ring is easier fed and uses less juice,,??rings are clever and for the want of a few extra mtrs of cable,the circuit should be done this way,,maybe one might add a double later,?
 my idea of a ring would be 8 doubles and i have had ups,s with a rating of 1kw or less using this safely and trouble free.
 to the best of my knowledge the flex is already on the plug to the ups,either 16amp or 10amp,so the idea is to have the distance to the first socket or breaker as short as possible,500mm.
 i have seen 10amp plugcables  with cable length exactly 160mm twined into a double socket giving 20amps outlet to such a ring circuit,however i would not recommend it simply because of the variety of different upss and their different internal wiring circuits,experience needed.!!
  i recently was made a gift of a 600watt mustique ups,i tried a small mustique before but binned it as a silly toy,however this 600watt had a much superior build than the apcs,everything was heavier and the wiring was neat and meaty,converting to external batts was so simple,and the beauty was that it only needed one touch to cold start.it would be ideal for garage door and light.
every home should have a ups, seperate ring and a battery bank kept topped up with solar panels tucked away up on the roof, this way you will never be without power.and its sine wave,,biff
     
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SimonHobson
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« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2011, 12:51:00 PM »

doubles in different colour or design will mean no overloading nonsence,,colour code you see simon,,best to be safe,,we have to think of other people using the system.
I didn't discount using different coloured sockets. I'd avoid using keyed/different sockets as that just gets inconvenient when you want to move stuff about.
Quote
now when a ring is installed it send our precious lecky out to the sockets in equal amounts,,,non of the end of the line symtoms and the ring is easier fed and uses less juice,,??rings are clever and for the want of a few extra mtrs of cable,the circuit should be done this way,,maybe one might add a double later,?
I don't wish to sound condescending, but you show a worrying lack of knowledge about electricity. I have to question whether you know enough to be doing this project safely.
Quote
i have seen 10amp plugcables  with cable length exactly 160mm twined into a double socket giving 20amps outlet to such a ring circuit,however i would not recommend it simply because of the variety of different upss and their different internal wiring circuits,experience needed.!!
I think you are talking about what electricians call "widowmakers" - two plugs wired together to supply "something". I cannot stress this enough, the fact that you even consider this demonstrates a lake of knowledge of basic electrical safety. They are called widowmakers for a very good reason, which should be obvious from the name.

If you are planning on more current than can be put through a 13A plug or a C13 10A connector, then you need to be considering something different. Some larger UPSs use the C19 16A connector, but past that they tend to be hardwired.
A radial circuit wired in 2.5 T&E is more than adequate for a 20A supply, that's 5kVA which is quite a sizeable UPS to be thinking about.

Also, I think installation of such a separate circuit would be notifiable under Part P of the building regs (at least in England). That would mean to do it legally would mean notifying your local authority Building Control department who are renowned for charging quite disproportionate fees for small electrical works. Alternatively, and probably much cheaper, would be to get a qualified electrician in to do the work and notify via his registration scheme.
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biff
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« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2011, 02:15:32 PM »

well hello again simon,self acclaimed geek and pc wizard extrordinaire,
             genuflect,,i do have a lot to learn,my whole life has been a learning curve and i guess i will never learn enough about electricity because my apitite though slow is insatible.
   i can understand your frustration when you come across a bricklayer like me, "i mean what the hell is this guy,,an animal of a bricklayer doing with a screwdriver in his hands,is there not a law against this"?,,"how dare he",,,,,"but i enjoy it simon",!!
  i only have a couple of hundred ups,a and perhaps 23 different kinds,,,wife said i needed to join "UPS ANONYMOUS"but i struggle on regardless,i have little nests of the toggle type 650va apcs and a few symmetra rms and in between that lot i have that many good and bad,,so i have a small bit of experience with ups,s.
 i am getting a bit worried about part P of the building regs,,i might have to go into hiding in the bluestack mountains,,do you think they might take the boat across the pond and chase me in the bluestacks,,
    irish press headlines,," ANIMAL OF A BRICKLAYER FOUND HIDING IN THE BOG HOTEL"   he contravened part p of the building regs, PJ says he meant no harm,,did not know any better,please give him another chance,, more to,,, so please dont tell simon.
    i could not be bothered splitting hairs or argueing over a different shade of white,maybe thats what geeks have to do to make things perfect,,perhaps, but i have built and assembled quite a few backup systems for people living on barges and large campers and trans continental trucks and the results have been good.
 so i am doing something right,,strange to say,,i have had a few problems with eletricians using the wrong cables,,some of them might be ok to wire a house but the can fall at the first fence when it comes to dc. bit like plumbers thinking they can install solar water heating without reading up on it,,some unhappy people and plumbers with bad names.
 i dont think you are condescending, i think you know everything,,like a good geek should,, so we are still best friends,, Grin   biff
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SimonHobson
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« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2011, 03:32:19 PM »

FWIW, I too think "Part P" is a right PITA and doesn't actually do what it set out to. I can see why they brought it in, and what it was supposed to do, but I don't think it's worked (not completely anyway). Some of the worst offenders carry on regardless - some because they don't care, others because they don't know. The ones that don't know simply don't have a clue, don't care that they don't have a clue, and don't care if there's a law or not !

Meanwhile, a lot of very capable people are prevented from doing work they are well capable of doing safely because they don't have the right bit of paper. Meanwhile, the work is done by some spotty oik who's done a 3 day course and so knows everything Roll Eyes

And for good measure, there's so much FUD around, mostly thrown about by people with a vested interest in making confused mugs, err customers, think that there's nothing can be done without paying a pro (ie the people pushing the cr*p).

We don't get to hear about people (for example) suffering with extensions and adapters because they think it's too costly to get an extra socket installed where they need it, while all the time that's one of the things that is specifically allowed without notification. Track down the 2010 building regs and turn to Schedule 4 - that's where it lists all the things you are explicitly allowed to do without notification. Taken literally (as it should be) you can virtually rewire the house !

You sound like you actually care, I had to point out the safety issues though. I think I'd be failing in my general duty of care not to. Plus I'd hate to read about another person electrocuted.

And deviating even more, I reckon we'll start seeing more and more people putting in hardwired UPSs and gennys. I gather last winter we came very close to having rolling blackouts such has been the lack of investment in new generating capacity (especially nice clean nuclear) over the last few decades. It's only going to get worse and in a few years we really won't have the capacity to handle peak demands in cold weather. And the Windmills were doing f**k all at the time.
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pontiff
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« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2011, 04:44:07 PM »

If it's worth the effort of all that lot (which suggests you have a lot of power cuts), it's probably worth wiring in separate cabling and sockets that can either run off the UPS or the mains. Either let the UPS handle the changeover, or fit a changeover switch.

We don't get that many cuts, but when they happen its a right pain because we have no other heating backup, the gas combi packs up. The original setup was purely to keep the boiler going ( and it works great for that)but then i got excited by it all and wanted to scale up a bit and run a few other bits and bobs off it.
I wasn't going to have a separate ring but now you've suggested it..... stir

p.s  my dad showed me a widowmaker when i was about 8 and even then I could see its obvious design flaw so don't worry, it would be done properly by a real leccy person.
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SimonHobson
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« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2011, 05:30:08 PM »

We don't get that many cuts, but when they happen its a right pain because we have no other heating backup, the gas combi packs up.
Just one of several reasons I wouldn't give a combi house room unless it really was the last resort.

I had to chuckle to myself the other week when it was reported that a load of homes were without gas - not laughing at the people affected, but when there was a mother on TV moaning that they didn't have hot water to bath in etc, I couldn't help thinking they have a combi and never thought about what to do when it's not working.
ANd when looking at that, I see some suffered power cuts as well, presumably because of all the electric heaters being turned on and overloading the local network. Good job they don't all have electric cars as well then !
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pontiff
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« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2011, 05:41:40 PM »

Yes we'd be fine if the gas went off but without leccy we are sc***ed. Thankfully my current boiler backup solves that issue, at least for a few hours. Add the genny/charger combo though and it's almost the Good Life! extrahappy
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rogeriko
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« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2011, 05:49:02 PM »

No part P here and guess what it works!



* electric_wire_3.jpg (124.49 KB, 600x811 - viewed 229 times.)
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biff
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« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2011, 06:41:17 PM »

roger,,part P is the striped pram or pushchair hanging outside the bicycle shop.
              but goodness me,,if you were a spark and got sent down to correct a fault in that lot,it would be like  swimming in a minefield,3 dimensional.there you,d be up yer little ladder and settling down to study,then a little breeze would send a cable swinging over to kiss the back of your neck,or poke you in the ear, hysteria
      but worse still,imagine trying to hold an inquiry into the death,,(well it was that wire,,  "ehhh which wire"
 well one of those wires in there somewhere and if you really want to find out get your own ladder and have a go."
that is one serious set up.the guy in the bicycle shop would have no bother tapping into that lot.
                                                                    biff
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clockmanFR
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« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2011, 08:30:40 PM »

I thought it looked familiar.
Na-y its just the phones, the 3 phase is on the pole behind.

And besides the kids peddling on the bikes provide the power for the telephones.  Grin
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« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2011, 08:47:49 PM »

If you are getting serious.

I have started switching my circuits, ie, Mains in, off, inverter supply.

They are called generator switch over switches, or rotary power switch over.

I even have a big 100amp job for switching over a whole little house, (the ECO Gite).

Pic, Like these rotary switches, 1, all lights in the main house, 2, some sockets and 3, the underfloor heating. and a socket underneath for an extension lead or such like.
I will keep adding more change over switches.


* P9101336a.JPG (33.36 KB, 553x415 - viewed 243 times.)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 08:50:13 PM by clockmanFR » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2011, 09:26:30 PM »

je ne comprenez pas,
                    dat is an impressive corner,,,,but,,how do you keep track of all the ups and all the downs,,wot if you come back after massive psxxup ,in the dark and happen to start fumbling in thatr corner.. would you survive,?? press the wong won down and see fireworks  Shocked,,?  it is definatly not corners for beginners,, however i suppose you will mark all the switch switchers clearly,, that should cover part P,, Grin
                                                                            biff
                                                               
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SimonHobson
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« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2011, 09:36:32 PM »

Add the genny/charger combo though and it's almost the Good Life! extrahappy
Well funnily enough, I went to a talk at a local engineering society a few weeks ago about smart metering. Anyway, one of the facilities is remote turn off, which will be very useful when they start having to ration lecky in cold weather. The chap sat next to me was thinking it's time to install a small diesel genny - he reckoned that if you have heat recovery on it then you can get well into the 90s for energy efficiency on them.

Also, it's fairly easy to set up an automatic changeover. A UPS will do that for you automatically, or a while ago I sat down and drew a simple circuit using two contactors mechanically interlocked (plus IIRC a time delay relay to delay switching back to mains, and a contact to trigger a genny start) - it was for work but we never got around to fitting it.
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« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2011, 09:35:29 PM »

As i said to Martin, "Electrics,.. ring mains?, single pole MCB's?, truly the UK is still in the dark ages"

PS, above each double pole MCB is a little picture of what each circuit is doing.   Wink

PPS, this lot of electrics is in the washing machine room!  Grin
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