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Author Topic: Backup power supply  (Read 7795 times)
Andy the Inverter Man
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« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2011, 11:20:32 AM »

I've made a backup power supply to supply leccy for lights, computer, wifi etc  out of a 1000w computer UPS and some leisure batteries. I've tested it pretty thoroughly and it will happily supply 650W for over an hour ( or a couple of hundred watts for a few hours.). I've added some extra cooling fans to keep it happy, and upgraded the wiring.
In inverter mode it powers my pc  and tv without killing them as it apparently produces a pure sine wave.

My question is, in a power cut, could i plug it into a bog standard 2kW genny ( as opposed to an expensive inverter type suitcase genny) to recharge the backup batteries? Would the UPS cope with this and still supply a suitable quality electricity to power sensitive equipment like computers?
Bear in mind this is just for occasional use in power cuts.

Leisure batteries have very thin lead plates and will wear out approx 10 times more quickly than a good AGM SLA battery.
You'll get a few tens of deep cycles from a leisure battery compared to a few hundred cycles from an AGM SLA battery.
AGM=absorbed glass mat (used in UPSs).  SLA=sealed lead acid.
Deep cycle means 100% discharge (typically down to about 10Vdc) and then charged up again.
When you see leisure batts advertised they always go on about hundreds of cycles.  What they DON'T tell you is that the depth of discharge (to get hundreds of cycles) is only about 5%.
I.E. a leisure batt will give a few tens of cycles at 100% discharge/charge and a few hundred cycles at say 5% (or maybe less) discharge/charge.
Whereas an AGM batt will hundreds of cycles at 100% discharge/charge and a few thousand cycles at say 5% (or maybe less) discharge/charge.

Compare the weight of a leisure batt and an AGM batt of the same Ah rating.  Leisure batt is approx half the weight as it has a lot less lead!

What's the model name & number of the APC UPS?

Line interactive UPSs (which is probably what you've got) don't always see the output of a cheap genny.
A double conversion UPS should see the o/p of a cheap genny.

Regards
Andy the Inverter and UPS Man
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 11:23:15 AM by Andy the Inverter Man » Logged
Andy the Inverter Man
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« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2011, 11:32:59 AM »

What the UPS's charger amps?
I looked at using one before I got the Victron but they all had chargers that were to small as they are sized so that after an outage they have a day or two to recharge the bank.

Yes its way underpowered which is why using a big powerful batt charger powered by the genny might be a solution.

Another question has now popped into my  tiny mind.... When the UPS is running on mains rather than battery backup, does it clean up the grid leccy at all or just leave it alone?

i've come across somebody who is using a cheap generator which is attached to one of these

 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/APC-LE1200I-Line-R-1200VA-Automatic-Voltage-Regulator-/160656562629?pt=UK_Computing_LaptopAccessories_PowerSupplies&hash=item2567e099c5

before going into the ups. The idea being that the ups batts are just to maintain power whilst the genny is refuelled/cools down?

XL UPSs generally have higher charge currents.

The APC voltage reg is a step up/ step down transformer.  It doesn't clean the AC mains supply.
A line interactive UPS reduces (not removes) spikes, noise, etc on the mains supply but does nothing for distortion (of the sine wave o/p).  Also it does NOT keep the output at a steady voltage.
A double conversion UPS always gives a perfect 230Vac sine wave output.

Regards
Andy the Inverter & UPS Man
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Andy the Inverter Man
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« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2011, 11:41:19 AM »

pontiff, I only know about the APC 5000 Ups in some detail. It took me some time to research and get the right inverter, this one runs on 48v batteries that are sitting there awaiting the call, so the 2 huge transformers, 14kg each, are running full time and give a 240vac supply at 3.7kw. It will handle from 174vac to 253vac and all spikes etc. According to APC recharge time from total drain is 2 to 5 hours to full for the internall 48ah battery system.

The power connection to the mains is wired in direct and is 20amp type.  In general the design is robust and is commonly used as a server Power supply.

Obviously i took the piddly little sealed lead acid's out, and modified the 2  100amp fuse connections, that have  bolt on 16mm/2 cables from my 48v 700ah battery bank. And the machine cold starts by just pushing the start button without the need of any mains.

This guy is helpfull and has some reconditioned jobs available, and will modify a UPS for you if required,  http://www.upsshop.plus.com/

Thx for the recommendation!

I have many more UPSs (inverters) than I have listed on my mini-website.
I was thinking of doing a "buy 2 and get 3rd one free" offer on certain models.
EG 1500va/980watts and 2200va/1600watts.
If anyone is interested please let me know.  I will have a think about prices.

Andy the Inverter & UPS Man
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biff
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« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2011, 03:39:42 PM »

hi andy,
         i could see you becoming very usfull here on the forum,   Grin dispelling myths and keeping us all on the straight and narrow, do you stock spares for the symmetra rm, ?
                         biff
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clockmanFR
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« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2011, 05:53:14 PM »

re, my 5000kva 3.7Kw APC UPS.

On or two of you are concerned about the connection arrangements between my 700Ah 48v batteries and the UPS Inverter.
The manufacture APC on this particular model have an internal dual power rails and have 2 internal 100amp fuses, these i have retained, but i have removed the connectors and bolted my 16mm/2  cables with soldered on bolt lugs to the original 4mm dia fuse bolts. These 2 cables then go to 2 50amp DC MCB's wired in parallel and hence gives me 100amp fuse that i can also use as an ISOLATOR.

So i have my 100amp MCB's then the UPS internal fuses.

I trust that clears that up?

Here's a Photo and you can see the grey MCB's on a little DIN rail on the middle shelf. The UPS is on the bottom shelf side on.


* PA231595d.JPG (115.52 KB, 1613x2150 - viewed 496 times.)
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biff
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« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2011, 06:21:43 PM »

ive add a werd wif simon,
                he sed,,weill ok,, but i wanted it in writing,,so he sed ok,, and lo and beholdie part P is on its way..
                                                                             dat shiney fing with the fins is a bit small for 3.7kw,,?wot,?? stir
                                                                                                                          biff
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clockmanFR
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« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2011, 07:01:00 PM »

Heres a bigger pic oh wise one!

the flippin big silver thing bottom shelf right, right.

biff, when its windy is it noisey as well in your castle.


* P9081332a.JPG (83.7 KB, 438x584 - viewed 421 times.)
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biff
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« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2011, 09:03:21 PM »

our little castle is snug and cosy but during a storm the wind roars up the drive can only be heard when we open the front door or a window,so it comes as a bit of a shock, to judge the speed of the turbine we shine a thin beam of light from the house to the blades but use a lazer spot during in misty weather,we get stormy misty damp weather here,its abit unusual but we still get it.
       i have the 3000va version of that baby,they do not cold start too well but if you ever find it necessary to cold start it, just use a little 12volt 100watt donkey inverter to bring it to life and then it will run on its own.even the one which plugs into a car cigarette lighter is enough to trigger the brain.
                   biff
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clockmanFR
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« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2011, 09:48:39 AM »

biff, my hearty, (putting on my best sea children pirates lingo).

The UPS 5000, and some APC's have a trick.

Cold start, with just your batteries, Press the start button and hold it until the internal buzzer sounds, when it sounds let go off the Start button, and bobs your uncle.
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Andy the Inverter Man
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« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2011, 11:15:59 AM »

hi andy,
         i could see you becoming very usfull here on the forum,   Grin dispelling myths and keeping us all on the straight and narrow, do you stock spares for the symmetra rm, ?
                         biff
I'll do my best!   Wink

Sorry, I haven't any for the rackmount Symmetra apart from one battery module.
I do usually stock the large tower 16kva Symmetra but just sold the last one.
Andy
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biff
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« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2011, 11:45:01 AM »

hi clockman,
         thats the normal route but sometimes they refuse to come to life when they have been sitting about for a while unused(highly unlikely in your case) perhaps the caps lose their charge or maybe mine is old and worn but i found that coldstarting these could be problematic to say the least, the 1500va smart apc is another tempermental little rascal if you are in a hurry.
     the most straightforward and reliable little apc is the 650va(12volt) 400watt old fashioned toggle switch type. this model is just bullit proof.
  there are other ups,s in my opinion(limited knowledge)which perform better and start more reliably than the apcs upss.
 some years ago i took delivery of 6 sleep mode 500watt wind/solar hybrid controllers (they only came to life when one switched on a load)along with their respectives lumps, these sleep mode inverter controllers were in my mind,"the bees knees"or the "complete answer". but it was not to be,i could start them ok, but nobody else would take the time or patience,so i had to replace them with smart ups,s and a seperate controller.
 they were so well made,weighed a ton and had solar connection also.someone went to a lot of bother to design and build these lovely boxs of bother so i still have them tucked away and someday i will figure out why they misbehaved so badly.
                                                                                                                      biff
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clockmanFR
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« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2011, 11:59:33 AM »

Thanks biff for your info, my 1500 APC and 5000 seem to start without much trouble. But thanks for the warning about the retention span of the cap's.

Perhaps one day we should pool our knowledge of UPS's.

I trust weather conditions have swept/scowered up the rubbish/cleaned, in you neck of the woods.?
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biff
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« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2011, 12:05:27 PM »

hi again c/m
            i would say the whole of the bluestacks has been scoured spotless, the sun is out now and traffic is humming on the roads,
     so i will get off my derryair and take a wander with the dogs,a bit of sunlight is just what we all need. whistlie
                                                                                                                                biff
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Andy the Inverter Man
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« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2011, 12:27:25 PM »

         thats the normal route but sometimes they refuse to come to life when they have been sitting about for a while unused(highly unlikely in your case) perhaps the caps lose their charge or maybe mine is old and worn but i found that coldstarting these could be problematic to say the least, the 1500va smart apc is another tempermental little rascal if you are in a hurry.
     the most straightforward and reliable little apc is the 650va(12volt) 400watt old fashioned toggle switch type. this model is just bullit proof.
  there are other ups,s in my opinion(limited knowledge)which perform better and start more reliably than the apcs upss.
                                                                                                                      biff
APC Smart UPSs cold start ok if you know a few tricks!   Smiley
Don't store them in damp conditions!!  If you have then put them in a warm room for 24 hours.
Sometimes the microcontroller crashes when cold starting.  Pres ON for 1 click, press OFF until hear click, then press ON and hold for few seconds until hear beep then release ON button.  Should start up ok.
If not check battery voltage.
If batt voltage ok, then do above but this time quickly press and hold ON again just after having released the ON button.
Andy
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