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Author Topic: Sanyo CO2 Eco 9kw ASHP - Help  (Read 35606 times)
MacBeagle
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« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2011, 08:30:56 PM »



Has the compensating curve to the heating system been set up correctly?
Do you know what its currently set at?

I don't know, nobody has given me a satisfactory answer to how it works and the explanation in the "manual" might as well be in Serbo-Croat.
The current settings are: Curve Inclination 70, curve adjust 5 - these have remained unchanged since the installation.
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Solal
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« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2011, 09:17:56 PM »

Is the flow temp  to your rads  reaching 70C. I'm trying to see it  on your images  but having no luck.

What size was your  oil boiler  you had removed?

Edit. AH I'm seeing it now. 40c.  
Which begs the question  why is it so low? The tank sensor  is reading  39C.
So it would appear the bivalent  valve is only  lifting it 1 degree!


But it shows the temperature  of   the HP water out as  65c.
It would be interesting to know  if  the outflow  temp from  the  HP  is in fact  65c by measuring  this temperature. But it very likely  is.

I'm getting the impression  the system is woefully  undersized.
  
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 11:06:14 PM by Solal » Logged
Panda
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« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2011, 10:29:07 PM »

If this is the same Sanyo unit I'm thinking of it essentially consists of an inverter driven combined outdoor unit which uses CO2 as its refrigerant and an indoor thermal store (of Swedish origin, rebadged Sanyo). A low flow high head Wilo circulator pump trickle charges the thermal store to the target temperature. The flow is supposed to be very low to ensure good stratification in the thermal store. A built in anti-legionella cycle boosts the temperature every few compressor starts. There are some electric immersion heaters fitted to the thermal store which can be configured on/off/auto.The thermal store has an internal coil (a bit like a Gledhill torrent) which instantaneously heats the incoming cold water to provide domestic hot water. The space heating water flow is supplied via a motorized 4 way mixing valve and an external central heating circulation pump. The mixing valve is controlled by the software in the controller of the thermal store in accordance with the curve setting. It may choose to take water from the top of the thermal store or the middle of the store. Water from the radiators is either returned to the thermal store or recycled back through the radiators via the 4th port on the mixing valve (or somewhere in between).

If your tank is hot and your radiators are cold then that would suggest that there is either inadequate circulation or the 4 way mixing valve is not working properly. You can operate it manually via the knob on the front of it or through the control panel (can't remember how). I've attached an excel sheet which has some recommended settings for this type of heat pump (although you would have to set the curve for the desired radiator temperature - you'll want to keep this as low as you can to maintain sensible performance). I got this spreadsheet from Sanyo a couple of years ago but I know there are at least 2 different versions of firmware on the tank unit so I can't say for sure if it will be 100% representative of your system. At least there is some narrative which may help you understand the various settings.

Before abandoning all hope, I would suggest you could try contacting Sanyo directly. They may be able to help.

Good luck

* CO2 unit UK settings.xls (54.5 KB - downloaded 232 times.)
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MacBeagle
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« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2011, 11:06:15 PM »

Panda. Thank you for your reply, very informative and I am beginning to sense a glimmer of understanding. I will try those curve settings tomorrow. Would the MIN SPEED CP setting have an improving effect i.e. higher temps to the rads, as I note mine is set to 10% and the spreadsheet is set to 30%, or am I clutching straws?
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Solal
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« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2011, 11:23:32 PM »

Isn't that for service personell   to evaluate the operation? I think  the  CP  acquires  its own  run percentage  to maintain the desired  HP flow temp.
Your currently running at  21%.

What size was your previous boiler?
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 11:27:38 PM by Solal » Logged
dhaslam
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« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2011, 01:16:33 AM »

Panda. Thank you for your reply, very informative and I am beginning to sense a glimmer of understanding. I will try those curve settings tomorrow. Would the MIN SPEED CP setting have an improving effect i.e. higher temps to the rads, as I note mine is set to 10% and the spreadsheet is set to 30%, or am I clutching straws?


The system probably  sets its own pump speed  but  it might help a little.   You need keep the compressor running but it seems to have only stopped for one hour in total in the previous twenty four and that doesn't indicate that the pump was running too slowly to circulate the full heat output.    I think that the best thing to try is cutting  thermostats down in  a number of rooms and see if the other rooms can come up to the set temperatures.   If a smaller number of rooms do come up  to the set temperature it would more or less confirm that  the heat pump  hasn't enough output to match the heat loss of the house.    You may also be expecting room temperatures that are too high, 20C is quite a high average room temperature to expect over the whole house.   
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DHW 250 litre cylinder  60 X 47mm tubes
Heating  180,000 litre straw insulated seasonal store, 90X58mm tubes + 7 sqm flat collectors, 1 kW VAWT, 3 kW heatpump plus Walltherm gasifying stove
tsh
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« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2011, 12:04:33 PM »

The thing that stands out to me is
HP WATER IN    41
HP WATER OUT 65

To me, this is a big red flag that you have too low a flow rate through the heat pump. It's regulating it's output temperature OK, but the flow isn't transporting much energy. Can you maybe watch the 'Compr Speed' after the unit starts up/defrosts or you drain off a lot of DHW? If the max is 80Hz, the pump is only running at 75% of it's potential.

If you have too large a radiator load (under-sized heat pump), water out will struggle to reach 65.
If you have too small a radiator set for the house, I guess it is possible that the unit is modulating the pump down. You can maybe test this by letting the system cool down (set the room stat to cold), allow WATER OUT to drop below 50, and see how the in/out temperatures track.

If you can see WATER IN=60, WATER OUT=65, then that would look more reasonable...
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Hitachi Yutaki RHUE 4.0AVHN ASHP
bassman
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« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2011, 12:50:57 PM »

Hi

For true "actual" figures on ASHP running costs see my post below as I am posting links to my monthly running costs each month.  The 2 links below are graphs of power usage for the last 2 months.  Location Co Down, N Ireland.

House has a constant temp of 20-21 degrees C

185sqm - bungalow - built 2004 - insulation level good - UFH, all floors tiled - 16kW daikin Monobloc fitted end Sept 2011


Previous average Oil usage per year over last 7 years was 3100 Litres!!

Presently saving 40% on running costs compared to oil - good insulation and no draughts are essential - nuff said


http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,14832.0.html



https://picasaweb.google.com/108455921836178416144/October262011?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCM-0qfuOjc_9ew&feat=directlink


« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 12:59:49 PM by bassman » Logged

Daikin 16kW Monobloc ASHP - Stovax 8kW multifuel stove
rondurrans
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« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2011, 03:19:55 PM »

You seem to like it 'toastie' bassman - converting 3,100 l of oil into kWh = 11.85 x 3,100 = 36,735 kWh/pa = 199 kWh/m2

Do you keep the house at 20 - 21 degrees C 24/7?

Thanks,
Ron

http://www.carbontrust.co.uk/cut-carbon-reduce-costs/calculate/carbon-footprinting/pages/conversion-factors.aspx
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4 kW PV Array on the North Wales Coast - http://energy1.moonfruit.com/
'Nullius in verba' & 'Nothing Endures but Change' (Heraclitus)
bassman
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« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2011, 03:50:18 PM »

ASHP is on for about 18 hours out of 24/7
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Daikin 16kW Monobloc ASHP - Stovax 8kW multifuel stove
baker
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« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2011, 09:52:38 PM »



Hi
just a idea
you have 0% displayed  on the mixing servo valve parameter?
is the  servo motor % pointer meter / moving  +,-  to regulate the tempature
 
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MacBeagle
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« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2011, 10:36:24 PM »



Hijust a idea
you have 0% displayed  on the mixing servo valve parameter?
is the  servo motor % pointer meter / moving  +,-  to regulate the tempature
 

Yes, I checked that today in the MANUAL settings and it does move.
We thought we would try a new strategy for a week and leave the thermostat 24/7 to switch on if the temp falls to 12; switch it to 15 at 8am-7pm and then have it switch to 17 until 11pm then back to 12 through the night. We thought that if we didn't allow the temperature to drop too much then the system wouldn't have to work so hard to raise the temp 2 or 3 degrees. The house only seems to be losing a degree during the day - temps of a steady 6 over the last couple of days help I suppose and the real tests come when we get into minus territory. Will keep you posted.
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baker
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« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2011, 12:13:07 AM »

 Hi
compressor speed 65hz
outside air tempature 2
room tempature  14
the compressor should be runing at almost full capasity ?
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tsh
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« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2011, 09:09:24 AM »

Hi
compressor speed 65hz
outside air tempature 2
room tempature  14
the compressor should be runing at almost full capasity ?

It can't, because the flow rate is not allowing any more heat to be taken away. Pump demand is set as a result of output temperature of the heat transport fluid.
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Hitachi Yutaki RHUE 4.0AVHN ASHP
baker
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« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2011, 11:22:19 AM »

 

good point
getting hot
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