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Author Topic: ASHP just as good as a GSHP - ?  (Read 6957 times)
Bodidly
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« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2013, 12:27:51 PM »

It,s a vertical  ground collector that can still be put in with a digger but goes down much further than a standard ground loop . I have not had experience of them just something I have seen when trawling the net on GSHPs
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clockmanFR
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« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2013, 12:30:31 PM »

mpooley,

We have a friend who lives in Belgium, and it seems most new houses near him have a bore hole drilled, however after a long talk it seems that the 3kw electric circulation pump is allways switched on.

Hang on a mo, 3kw electric allways on?  
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Bodidly
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« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2013, 12:37:38 PM »

Just had another look and it does look like they are normally laid flat but this site implies it is in some way different. http://www.gogeothermal.co.uk/category.asp?c=17
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stannn
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« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2013, 01:35:04 PM »

I don't fancy them Beau with at least 40 joints on each frame potentially able to fail,well out of sight, via corrosion.
Stan
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2.45 kWp PV (Navitron supply), 40 evacuated tubes (Navitron supply), Clearview 650 log burner with back-boiler heating cottage and water, 2 off 50W border collies, 1 off 35W cat, 1 off 25W cat.
JonG
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« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2013, 01:39:54 PM »

As installers we would urge caution over using the compact collectors, even some of the less celebrated big guns have moved away from them. Multiple below ground joints, difficult to purge of air and concerns over the amount of heat extracted in a small area abound.

ASHP are now much better, some of the Austrian units will outperform most of the offerings on the UK market and arguably more development is being focused on this sector of the market than any other. Bear in mind though that the outdoor unit will wear out much quicker than a GSHP maybe 10-15 years depending on the unit, typically Swedish/German will last longer than the air con derivatives but there are also ducted versions of ASHP's that can be installed inside, mainly again from German/Austrian manufacturers which increases the cost.

PM me if you want details given the sensitivity of mentioning products by name.
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mpooley
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« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2013, 04:06:03 PM »

This is probably a daft idea but I'm sure it wouldnt be too difficult to build a structure around the ASHP that would allow maximum air flow but protect it from the worst of the weather, wouldn't it?
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titan
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« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2013, 04:45:05 PM »

This is probably a daft idea but I'm sure it wouldnt be too difficult to build a structure around the ASHP that would allow maximum air flow but protect it from the worst of the weather, wouldn't it?

They are designed to be outside. I wouldn't worry about the weather but noise may be an issue.   I spent a lot of time looking at heat pumps and was very tempted by the much less hassle free  and cheaper ASHP installation. I would be happy to have an ASHP. The problem I found two years ago was that most of the ASHP expertise was with the established HVAC companies who in turn didn't have MSC approval, things have probably changed now. Some of the European units seemed very expensive for what they are and I would have been happy with any of the Japanese makers who have many years experience and good performance and reliability records. Parts and warranty will be dealt with through their large network of dealers, for me this would be reassuring that if I did have a problem I wouldn't be waiting for weeks for spares.Two l Mitsui dealers were happy for me to do the install which they would then check and commission and give a 5 year warranty. In the end I installed  GSHP but it was a close run thing.
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mpooley
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« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2013, 05:19:32 PM »

mmh I'd like to do the install myself too - depends if I can find an installer who I trust to do a proper job though.
If I can find one that's not full of BS and not too expensive I will let him do it.
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davec
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« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2013, 07:01:20 PM »

they were talking about 4 boreholes of 30mtr though not 1 deep one - not sure why that is.

For what sort of heat requirement?
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mpooley
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« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2013, 09:58:44 PM »

I think it was 16kw they quoted
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It's not easy having a good time. Even smiling makes my face ache.

“Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.” Richard Feynman
sam123
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« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2013, 05:56:13 AM »

This sounds incredible to me but what do I know.

In real life you get here in Finland year COP 1.6 - 2.0 for ASHP and COP 3.5-4 for GSHP. That is for UFH. This is DHW included.

BUT in UK, your ASHP will work just fine:

Your location: http://classic.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=INORFOLK8&graphspan=custom&month=1&day=1&year=2012&monthend=12&dayend=31&yearend=2012
My location: http://classic.wunderground.com/history/airport/EFJY/2012/1/1/CustomHistory.html?dayend=31&monthend=12&yearend=2012&req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA
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davec
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« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2013, 07:54:19 AM »

I think it was 16kw they quoted

OK. Assuming the pump draws about 4Kw, you'd need the hole to supply the balance...12Kw from 120m => 100w/m!
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mpooley
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« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2013, 11:02:12 AM »

I think it was 16kw they quoted

OK. Assuming the pump draws about 4Kw, you'd need the hole to supply the balance...12Kw from 120m => 100w/m!

I take it you don't think that's right?
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It's not easy having a good time. Even smiling makes my face ache.

“Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.” Richard Feynman
A.L.
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« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2013, 11:45:55 AM »

hello

Quote
I take it you don't think that's right?

MCS recommendations seem to lie in the range 20-50W/m

certainly not more than 4kw from an 80m borehole

www.microgenerationcertification.org/images/MIS_3005_Supplementary_Information_1_-_MCS_022_-_Ground_loop_sizing_tables_2011-09-02_v1.0.pdf
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davec
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« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2013, 01:12:57 PM »

Aye, am I right in thinking those MCS figures are per metre of borehole, not per metre of collector pipe? Even if it were the latter, it would be 240m @ 50 w/m, which strikes me as v. optimistic given that the first 20m of each hole is 'seasonal'.

'Typical' numbers I've seen are: 600m for a horizontal (slinky) collector and 3*100m for a vertical borehole collector.
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