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Author Topic: Mini Surrey flange  (Read 9631 times)
biff
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« on: February 27, 2013, 12:50:38 AM »

Hi again Folks,
              The trials and tribulations of my Dc powered dump load immersion in our domestic hot water cylinder are pretty well  documented here on Navitron.Its is enough to say that our wind turbine and a one 120vdc x 740watt pv array dump excess energy into our H/W/C so sucessfully that the water at the top of the tank becomes unbearably hot,so I decided after quite a bit of faffing about that a surrey flange sited in a 22" outlet at the top of the tank could be installed and the hot water thermostatically triggered to be pumped out and down onto the solar coil which is located near the base of the tank.The present thermostat only triggers on the expansion from the boiler whose coil is 600mm below the dump load immersion,which means that the top of the tank can be boiling but the boiler stat dont trigger the Pump to send the excess round the rads,So I have had to think of another way to use our lovely hot water ,,rather than running it off down the plughole every few hours each day.
      so I was all ready to rumble this morning,everything ready.I had to strip out some cupboards to get access(I have to admitt that I do tend to close of areas with too many pipes so access is nearly always a problem in my plumbing efforts,no matter how well intending I start out,It was only when I was about to remove the blank that I realised that this was not even 22",It was 15mm,,Disappointment,Naturally.However no matter what way I played it,the hot was going to have to be recirculated through the lower solar coil or else someday the plastic fitting located hight up in the tank were going to melt and cause a disaster.So a smaller mini surrey flange was necessary but could I build one that could get into a 15mm boss and the answer was yes and much more simpler than one might imagine.Desperation can achieve miracles,
                                                                            Biff
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biff
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« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2013, 01:12:20 AM »

 And again,
I took an ordinary 15MM T and 2 x 15mm to 10 mm straight reducers and a connector from the top of the tank boss to the bottom of the verticle 15mm T.
  The idea is very simple. I run the first 10mm pipe straight down through the top reducer ,down through the T and into the tank by 150mm,Leaving a tail approx 150mm to connect to,It means that I have to file out the pipe stop or shoulder inside the 10mm top reducer to allow the pipe through into the tank.Drilling out will be more suitable and accurate with less chance of any damage to threads,When the 10mm pipe is in situ, I have to find a way to gently clear a nice passage through to the right angle in the T which will mean slightly squeezing the 10mm pipe up to that point.I have examined this and it is very "Doable" without too much engineering experience.I will be able to route the 10mm pipes away from the boss quite easily,first into 15mm and iso,s on each,Then up to 22mm into the pump connectors.
   I will post pics of this in different stages,I have not made up my mind what kind of pump to buy,wheither to go for the one for domestic water or just an ordinary pump for C/H..one 48euros and the other 115euros.I think that because the pipe is only 10mm I will have to settle for the bronze innards one,,115euros Cry..Meanwhile I plan my comeback. banghead  I would be gratefull for any advice on the pump.
                                                             Biff
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 01:22:01 AM by biff » Logged

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biff
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« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2013, 04:36:59 PM »



.This pipe shows the complete Donegal flange  garden with the 10mm pipe travelling through the right reducer,through the T and showing approx 150mm of 10 mm pipe which will go down onto the head of the cylinder picking up the hot water and drawing it down into the solar coil at the bottom of the tank,to cool,being returned to the top via the reducer on the center of the T.It might be an idea to do it the other way but I am not sure yet.I still have to aquire a bronze innards circulation pump..and all i will have to do now is fit it.
                                   Biff
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 06:01:38 PM by biff » Logged

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Mostie
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« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2013, 05:33:01 PM »

Biff, are we circulating cylinder water from top to bottom? if so these little chaps are often seen doing this job, however as you say there are cheaper options.

http://www.anchorpumps.com/pump-type/heating-circulation-and-hot-water-pumps/hot-water-service-circulators/grundfos-comfort-hot-water-service-circulators-240v
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biff
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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2013, 06:10:54 PM »

Thanks for that Mostie,
                     Yes,I am trying to design a way of recirculating through a 15mm boss at the head of the tank.I do have room for a decent size pump and the coil has 22mm fittings,so a standard bronz innards pump turneds down to a low setting (27watt) should do the business,I can get one here locally for 115euros,so I am not too stuck but the pump is Bally dear. Cry
                                                                   Biff
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« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2013, 06:19:37 PM »

So finally today I wired in the pump for the flange,
                            Tested it and it certainly pulls the hot water way down south to the solar coil.To be honest it was a buxxer of a job,I was dealing with 3 different pipes sizes,going from 22mm down to 10mm and using over 30 connections in the process and that was being clever and saving on them. The pump does not come with its own iso,s so ordinary iso,s were fitted at convienent places.A bleeder was fixed at the highest point and 2" x 1" battons were fixed to provide support to the pipework on its way to and from the solar coil.
      Fixing the stat to the copper expansion pipe was awkward so say the least,I had to take the probe out of the housing and make a pouch round the copper of 2L2 then push the probe into the pouch,locating the casing and dial 4" away.Its all fixed now,,All I have to do now is balance it against the central heating pump stat just keeping it a few degrees above the C/H pump stat.This recirculating flange will also perform for the boiler when the temp goes up into the hot ,hot range,There is no temp contol on the boiler so this flange will make the best use of all the heat,instead of having it blowing off into the loft,which used to mean we had to keep sensible fires.
                                                                 Biff
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« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2013, 12:55:57 AM »

I fired up the boiler at 6pm,
                              Put on a brute of a fire,The rads all got hot to touch with the stats removed,the water heater in the hall downstairs was sending hot towards its expansion tank but it did not get there,The house got quite warm,even with all the doors open,it was about 10pm before the flange pump kicked in but it stayed running for just under an hour dumping the heat through the solar coil into the bottom of the tank.The flow would be very hot and the return quite cold,the return did not get even slightly warm untill about 11.20pm by then the boiler was using the last of its fuel and the flange pump was starting and stopping every 15mins.
    So it is working really well and I know it will be able to cope with the wind turbine and solar array dump load immersion.I expected a bit of turbulence noise from the pump but not as bad as I though it would be,considering it is pumping through pipe work which has the last few feet done in 10mm pipework,The pump says 30watt but it would not surprise me to find out it was using more.Still it will mainly be used to recirculate the hot water from the top of the tank at a time when the turbine is trying to get rid of energy,so 30 watts on the ac side is nothing.
  If anyone requires any information on how to build one of these very simple mini flanges,just ask and I will supply the details.
                                                                                          Biff
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« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2013, 08:29:14 PM »

ahhh the miracle of modern engineering and all through a 15mm boss.The bits and bobs for this simple flange cost 10.50 euros

,Pic showing pipe going from 22mm down to 10mm and brass pump.
                                          Biff
« Last Edit: March 18, 2013, 08:42:10 PM by biff » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2013, 08:53:06 PM »

Excellent, its working... can't beat a good bit of automation  fingers crossed!
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« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2013, 10:02:40 PM »

You should find it interesting how quickly your rad circuit can reduce the temp of the cylinder. Try some experiments.  genuflect
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« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2013, 10:24:52 PM »

 Aye solar,
               I already carried out a few tests,loading the boiler up to capacity and after 6 hours the rads were toasty and the recirculating water on the return was as hot as the flow just as the boiler was beginning to die down.This was with very little dump load input.So we will still be cutting back on the size of the boiler loadings especially during a sunny/.windy day.
                                                                   Biff
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« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2013, 09:44:24 AM »

The past 24 hours have been an exellent test on the system,
                              The stat which controlls the pump on the hot water  recirculating system is not responsive enough.It is located in a pouch of 2L2 wrapped round the copper expansion pipe at the head of the tank.The recent stormy weather has had the turbine dump load immersion working overtime.The pipe work can handle the heat.I know this because when the pump first starts up the 22mm pipe on the flow going into the coil is very hot while the return is quite cold,so the heat is immediatly being transfered to the bottom via the solar coil as planned.Unfortunatly the probe is just that bit too far away from the immersion and much to slow to respond,so I have another stat lined up to insert down into the sleeve in the immersion and this should respond to the change in temp much quicker.The gauge is on the end of a 600mm pipe and I will be able to locate it in a better place. Roll Eyes
                  Biff
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« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2013, 06:42:58 PM »

Well folks,  Im sick tweeking,I will tweek no more.For the past week I have been working on and off our hot water recirculating system and the odd tweek brough me close to the odd narrow squeak. As you know our stat connected to the D/H/W expansion did not give a good response so I opted for a probe which would slide down inside the sleeve in the dc dump immersion.This stat triggers the pump which circulates the very hot water from the top of the tank to the solar coil in the bottom and return the water cooled.So it has a double action.
      So I thought this out carefully and planned accordingly and like the best laid plans of men and mice the whole show almost got derailed.The first stat was supplied by my favourite plumbing shop and turned out to be a dud.The second stat fitted one immersion probe but when I went to slide it into the sleeve in question,it stuck fast.There is very little room up there and having to work with a mirror and a headlight in very warm conditions,I soon found that I had a real problem.After a few minutes the probe swelled up enough to sit rock solid half into the top of the sleeve.I know you are all going to say   "Hit it a good hard clip with the hammer"....No way Hosey. I switched on the pump and sent all the nice hot water to the bottom of the tank and after an hour I gave it a good pull with pliers and whipped it out.I then got a chainsaw chain file and began reaming up and down the sleeve with the intention of getting rid of any little burrs,doing the very thing I would tell someone else not to do.After a while I sobered up and hid the file under the bed.
 So I tried the probe again and it stuck again but this time I got the pliers out fast and whipped it out and hid the pliers,probe and switch under the bed. Life is tough at the top of the step lader.I was getting nowhere.Then I cunningly remembered That I had a similar probe and switch in the water heater downstairs and after a quick investigation I discovered its probe slid nicely into the sleeve and the new one fitted the water heater to a T.After switching them over a certain calm reigns,all is good.Just as I was finishing up,She herself landed in the door,"What kind of a day did you have "she asks .          "Ie ah awights" says i,     Biff
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 06:50:59 PM by biff » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2013, 03:26:58 PM »

Today is cause for celebration,
                              I came home from town and walked into the hall,I noticed it was quite warm.Outside might be bright and sunny but it is still only just above freezing.So the two rads in the hall are quite warm and I went to check on the boiler.The boiler was not running,then a quick peek at the water heater in the hall told me that the pump was on,sending excess heat round the C/H system.So there was 6 rads and a towel rail quite warm in the downstairs loop,I upped the thermostat a degree or two and went upstairs to look in on our D/H/W/C and again the pump there was recirculating hot water from the top of the tank to the bottom,The return pipe was still cool enough not to worry,I am hoping that when the real summer comes along that the c/h pump will kick in and also divert excess heat to the rads.I am rather chuffed with this result.
          This is how it should be,
                                 Biff
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« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2013, 03:37:34 PM »

glad to see it's all working so well now, it must be nice to have everything working automatically and taking care of itself :-)
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