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Author Topic: Underfloor Heating Motorised Valve Problem  (Read 7580 times)
rob75
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« on: March 08, 2013, 01:07:59 AM »

Hi,

This topid follows on from the previous post made here which was solved:

http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,19533.0.html

I've started another because although related I think this issue warrants it's own thread.

My current setup:

Ecodan ASHP - zone 1: radiators, zone 2: underfloor.

When I call for heat for the underfoor (with rads off) the pump wakes, the zone valve opens and the underfloor fills up. When I turn the stat down the pump stop and the zone valve closes.... all good.

However, if I have the rads (zone 1) on with the underflor (zone 2), when I turn the stat down on the underfloor the zone doesn't close and consequently the underfloor doesn't shut down. The moment I turn down the stat for zone 1 it shuts down the zone vales 1 and 2.

Why would the zone 1 stat control the zone 2 motorised valve. The vales are wired into the FTC2 so I think the issue lies there.

Am I going mad or is there something not quite right.

Thanks,

Rob.
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efficiencyman
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« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2013, 08:52:04 AM »

The live feed to the M/V microswitch is `not` wired as per wiring diagram, double check, ---  that`s where the fault is most likely.
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Wet underfloor & multi zone Hybrid heating. Gas & 15Kw Heat Pump, Heat Stores 20 Evac Tube Solar Thermal. LED Lighting throughout.  Nissan Leaf Tecna Zero Emision Car.
rob75
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« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2013, 01:11:20 PM »

I double checked the motorised valve for zone 2:

It is wired to J10 on the FTC 2 as follows:

S1 - Grey
S2 - Orange
L - Brown
N - Blue

There is a 5th pin for Earth but the zone valve doesn't have an earth.

This colour coding is the same as the motorised valves for zone 1 and DHW.

The stange part is that the zone closes if only that zone is open. But when zone 1 is also open zone 2 won't shut/close.

I have spoken the supplier of the pump but if I'm honest I don't think they really know what they're talking about.

Rob.
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efficiencyman
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« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2013, 02:12:14 PM »

Hi Rob.  Both M/Valves need to be wired so the brown with switches from it`s relavent zone stat to open the valve.
                                                                    Both blue`s  =  Neutral
                                                                   Both grey`s  =  live feed to microswitch ( must not be able to be backfed from the other M/V )
                                                                   Both orange`s = sw L that calls for the heat pump contactor.
I have wired thousand`s of these in this way -- no problem.
I have often been sent to out to this type of wiring problem, all too often some can`t seem to follow wiring plans. 
Make sure that both grey`s are permanently fed via 3Amp fuse. i.e. not fed from the sw L or a backfeed can occur causing your fault.
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rob75
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« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2013, 03:01:27 PM »

Ah ok, finally someone who knows what they are talking about. ~slightly concerning that the pump supplier's tech support do not have a clue what they're doing and keep giving me incorrect solutions!

Is there any indication as to what S1 and S2 are - I am guessing switched lives but why two?

I'm still not clear on what the 'live feed to microswitch' is.

Thanks,

Rob.
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efficiencyman
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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2013, 09:11:12 PM »

Sorry Rob, I thought I explained, the live feed needs to be fed from the same live supply as the thermostats which control the M/V`s.
 Make sure that there is no cross connection between the microswitch terminals grey/orange, which must be kept independent from the M/V motor terminals Blue / Brown.
I am not familiar with your units S1/S2 connections what are they used for ? A decent supplier`s tech support should supply all relevant wiring info. mine did all the way from China in a few hours with exactly what I needed to know & highlighted in colour. Further tests may be needed to verify if it can be used directly to grey/orange microswitches in the M/V `s,  do you not have any wiring details for S1/S2  ?
Be very careful of feeding the S1/S2 connections from the M/V 240v  as it maybe that they could be `volt free contacts`, is there a link across them ?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 08:21:09 AM by Eleanor » Logged

Wet underfloor & multi zone Hybrid heating. Gas & 15Kw Heat Pump, Heat Stores 20 Evac Tube Solar Thermal. LED Lighting throughout.  Nissan Leaf Tecna Zero Emision Car.
baker
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« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2013, 12:10:37 AM »

i think  the ftc2 
the actuators orange switch live is for the circulators only ,not the command for heat pump operation
as their is a  domestic hot water overide function
the two chanel  progammer signal > roomstat > ftc2 > heat pump demand>ftc> brown m,v> orange m,v  >circulators swl
have you set the correct desired tempatures for the for the 2  zones on the par w2 
baker
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efficiencyman
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« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2013, 09:54:07 AM »

Ah ok, finally someone who knows what they are talking about. ~slightly concerning that the pump supplier's tech support do not have a clue what they're doing and keep giving me incorrect solutions!

Is there any indication as to what S1 and S2 are - I am guessing switched lives but why two?

I'm still not clear on what the 'live feed to microswitch' is.

Thanks,
Rob.
Dealing with some tech support can often be very frustrating, my email inquiry from China was promt and perfect, about a wiring mod I wished to do on my Heat Pump PCB my compressor is now partly controlled via my multi M/Valves  "by the sw L orange wires".
 
the live feed to microsw is needed if you want to use an sw L output.

Re;- S1/S2 you need the" two terminals" if they are "volt free contacts" they may be used directly to the grey/orange wires.
As I wrote before but not if grey is fed from a permanent supply with orange used as sw L givng a 230v output.

Baker -- the actuator orange sw L can be used to switch any load up to 3 Amps  (not just circulation pumps) in fact any of my 8 M/V`s do  switch on my heat pump hybrid system giving full zone control which I have installed  over 25 years ago when I worked for Honeywell controls. I also use a separate DHW overide priority function via the M/V sw L orange wires,  except when my solar HW has inhibited it.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 09:58:41 AM by efficiencyman » Logged

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rob75
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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2013, 02:15:20 PM »

Hi,

This is the wiring diagram for the FTC2.

The zone 2 pump I have is wired into J10 "CH2".

http://i.imgur.com/VCwg8Bx.jpg

Does that give any indication as to which wires go where, apologies I know very little about the electrics as you can tell!

Rob.
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rob75
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2013, 09:36:03 PM »

Further to my findings I have also discoverd that zone 1 does not close down when the thermostat is turned down.

So both zones are either open or closed. In order to shut any zone down both thermostats have to be turned down. they both seem to be back feeding one another.

Rob.
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Mostie
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« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2013, 11:56:37 PM »

Rob, need to look at that drawing when more sober  Tongue
you have a room stat in J3 and another in J5 ?

edit: actually need to read whole thread again  Embarrassed
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rob75
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« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2013, 09:16:53 AM »

my zone 2 programmable room stat goes to J4.

I know this is different to the labels on that diagram but the pump provider sent me a revised wiring schematic which says to use J4 as the thermostat and J3 for the zone 2 clock (if used). The new schematic doesn't have the pin/wire details though hence I sent the old one.

Rob.
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desperate
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Backache stuff!!


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« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2013, 08:59:14 PM »

There are all sorts of ways of wiring up this stuff, but quite often with two pumps in a system using one heatsource a relay is needed to stop backfeeding as efficiencyman has mentioned. If two zones share a heat source but not the pump, which is often the case when a system uses both UFH and radiators you need a relay to seperate the calls for heat from the zones.
Try drawing out the wiring diagramme, just the lives with all the switches, and it will become obvious.

Desp
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still a crazy old duffer!
rob75
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« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2013, 09:37:36 PM »

I think I solved the issue, I removed the grey wire (pin 1) - the diagram this seems to be linked to the pin one of the other valves so perhaps that is where the feedback was occurring?

With the grey removed I can now shut down zone 2 independently, zone 1 can remain open and close without causing zone 2 to shut down!

Is it as simple as that, do my fidning tally with the schematic I posted?

Thanks,

Rob.
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efficiencyman
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« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2013, 10:36:57 AM »

Hi Rob, Sorry I did`nt reply sooner Mothers day was hectic with all family visits inc. 9 grandchildren. 
I `m glad it`s solved, I have come across this same wiring hick up many times over the last 40+ years. Keeping it simple without using relays or often those wiring centers can present problems (with those hidden links). 
 I have 3 heat sources (Gas ASHP & Solar), 3 pumps, 2 programmers,  a frost stat, room/cylinder stats x 7,  7 zone M/Valves with NO relays used,  keep it simple and logical is often the answer, just watch out for those back feeds  --  well done.

PS. hope that those micro switches behave themselves for a long life,  -   all the best.    Efficiencyman
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Wet underfloor & multi zone Hybrid heating. Gas & 15Kw Heat Pump, Heat Stores 20 Evac Tube Solar Thermal. LED Lighting throughout.  Nissan Leaf Tecna Zero Emision Car.
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