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Author Topic: System link up help, H2 panel vs Esse centraliser.  (Read 14190 times)
Dan1983
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« on: July 04, 2013, 01:33:57 PM »

Afternoon all,
This is my first post, iam hoping to gain some views on my link up heating system.
Our bungalow with dorma already runs a boiler stove via an open vented system with thermo cycle so the basics are already here.
We wish to add a system gas boiler as we both work and are fed up of coming home in the winter to a freezing house.
A friend is doing the link up ( he is hetas reg inc wet systems) but we can't quite agree which method to use for the linkup!.
My back ground is pipe fitter on new build ships then moved to petro chemical so I do understand piped service systems and controls.
After initial searching there were only a few options basic options for the linkup, then I found the heating innovations H2 panel. This seemed to tick all the boxes whilst remaining simple to understand. I rang Mike and had chat ( as I may need to site the panel above the cylinder and wanted to check this was ok), all good!.
I though this was the best option with getting into heat stores etc.
When my friend came round to scope he had not used/ heard of the H2 panel before and dismissed it as looking at the diagrams with him he thought it may not be suitable for a modern system boiler as the layout could be prone to drawing sludge or air if fitted in the loft space.
He would like to use the Esse centraliser as its simpler and thinks its all I need for the setup whilst also being cheaper to buy.
My reservations on the Esse are that it needs to site between wood burner outlet and hot water cylinder, this could be an issue as I would need to raise the cylinder and space is tight in my airing cupboard.
My other issue is there seems to be nothing to stop back flow into the boiler stove when it's not in use as it just runs stats rather than motorised valves like the H2.
Although its cheaper to buy and simpler, after buying the extra stats and a valve to stop back flow I don't think there would be much in it price wise, plus the H2 is pre programmed so no setting up as such.
Thank you for reading, I need to order a system in the next week as I have a deadline of 1st of September to have it commissioned!.
Regards
Dan
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rural
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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2013, 06:03:34 PM »

your mate should be telling you the best way to link up ie he being hetas wet systems certifiefied
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Dan1983
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« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2013, 07:03:55 PM »

 The problem seems to be he won't be the first or last hetas wet engineer not to have heard of the H2 panel it seems.
People don't like to stray from the norm.
I also feel I'm just as qualified to make judgement on what system to lean towards from a technical point of view.
I guess what I'm after is someone's view that has fitted a H2 panel and maybe the neutraliser/ centraliser type set up that could give a back to back review and any real pro's/ con's etc
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rural
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« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2013, 07:14:29 PM »

are you fitting a gas open vented boiler or sealed system type
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Dan1983
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« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2013, 07:22:04 PM »

Normal system boiler with open vented hot water cylinder.
We have just had the gas run in from the lane for a very reasonable price from British gas, I was surprised!.
My wife is also pregnant hence the urgency to get this sorted ASAP, we have done 2 winters here now and it's awful coming home to a freezing house, by the time the burner is going well its time to go to bed so we have survived on oil filled electric rads so far.
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rural
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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2013, 07:28:58 PM »

the esse centraliser / dunsley neutraliser and h2 panel are all designed to work on open vented system ie gas or oil boiler side aswell unless you use plate heat exchangers etc
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Dan1983
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2013, 07:50:03 PM »

Yes they would all be suitable, I do see the dunsley as abit primitive though and looks over complex piping side and is expensive for what you get.
The esse looks a nice simple option and 1 up from the dunsley with the inclusion of the 2 stats to trigger the pumps, but I don't like that I would need to run an NRV off the stove outlet to stop back flow when I'm just using the gas and also 2 pumps. I could fit an MOV linked to a stat but if I'm going go down that route I may aswell use the H2 panel that runs MOV's via the Honeywell controller and let it run its self.
After I added the extra stat needed for the esse and an extra pump I can't see there being a big saving over the H2.
Cost wise I don't care how much it is, I just want to link my system the best way possible with minimal disruption to the house. Smiley
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ecogeorge
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« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2013, 09:32:32 PM »

I don't know , -wait until Brandon comes along.  signofcross
George.
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splyn
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« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2013, 09:58:41 PM »

The problem is preventing the reverse circulation safely. If you use a non return valve it has to be a 'featherweight' valve as it has to be opened by the very low pressure gravity circulation. My understanding is that these can be unreliable and easily get stuck due to limescale/rust etc. This would mean you would then be relying on the pressure relief valve on the solid fuel boiler as the primary safety mechanism, without the gravity circulation removing heat from the boiler. I don't know if this is acceptable or not.

Similarly motorized valves aren't fail-safe - you can use a spring return valve which opens when the power goes off but the valve could jam shut or the control mechanism could fail (eg. thermostat contacts could get stuck/welded together etc.).

Splyn
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Dan1983
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« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2013, 10:18:43 PM »

This was my concern with the NRV, especially in a heating system where it will spend long periods in the closed position in the summer months although this is mainly a worry with swing check type NRVs.
Yes the MOV's could stick but at least you can still see if it is closed or open visually.
Also the pressure is less of a worry as its all open vented, cylinder and rad circuit.
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splyn
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« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2013, 10:49:23 PM »

Quote
Yes the MOV's could stick but at least you can still see if it is closed or open visually.

True but are you going to check it every time you fire the boiler up, especially if its in an airing cupboard or other out of the way location? What if you sell the house?

Quote
Also the pressure is less of a worry as its all open vented, cylinder and rad circuit.

Fair enough, but make sure the vent/expansion pipe tees off the boiler side of any valve you install in the gravity circuit - I believe its typically tee'd off at the top connection to the cylinder coil.

By the way, I'm no expert so don't rely on my musings - I'm trying to recall the link-up scheme advice I got 30 years ago from the Solid Fuel Advisiory Service (part of the National Coal Board I believe) when I was faced with the same problem. (I didn't install it in the end so can't tell you how well it worked).

Splyn
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Dan1983
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« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2013, 11:44:05 PM »

Thank you for the advise, I would not check every time, I do feel the MOV would be a safer option to the NRV in this instance.
I will never sell the house unless I get divorced fume
With regards to the setup that is the other advantage of the H2 there is no real planning required, the system is already pre planned you just plumb to the flow and returns on the board.
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Dan1983
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« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2013, 04:22:59 PM »

Well for info we went a different route in the end.
Condensing combi via a heat exchanger and system zone manifold, solid fuel side will stay basic with the inclusion of a ladomat flue stat to trigger the pump on that side and a heat leak rad which I think we will run off an mov/ pipe stat.
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