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Author Topic: Easterdown off grid is going ahead!  (Read 14354 times)
martin
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« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2013, 04:51:34 PM »

sealed.......? facepalm faint
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
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V
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« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2013, 05:30:36 PM »

sealed.......? facepalm faint
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Sigh. This is why we need help. All of our mistakes are ahead of us....

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9.7 kW of Solar PV, 3x 3000 SMA Sunny Boys, 1x SMA Sunny Island  8.0 and 1848 aH (C10) of FLA - 3.3kVA Honda generator converted to LPG
clockmanFR
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« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2013, 06:09:23 PM »

V, Your batteries are the heart of the matter.

Good quality Forklift pack, normally each cell is 2v at 1200ah so you need 24 off for a 48v system, and these can be worked hardish, (what I am saving up for). Here we have Gel and sealed types but these are extra H/duty type and were going for a song. Its physical weight that your after!.....

Billi had some German contacts at a good price, also some forklift service firms could supply you a complete pack.

here's a pic from C.A.T. (centre of Alternative Energy)


* P7100209a.jpg (73.81 KB, 635x476 - viewed 360 times.)
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martin
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« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2013, 06:38:20 PM »

V - do heed the advice of the off-gridders amongst us - they've often made expensive mistakes themselves - it's so much cheaper in the long run to get the right batteries and treat them properly for a long and trouble-free life - they are blessed expensive things, often the "cheap" ones work out most expensive of all...........
I'd be very tempted by the Rolls batteries or a forklift battery (which are all flooded lead-acid) - it's a well established type which can last very well indeed - best of all, you can "top them up"  - you can't do that with sealed batteries (hence the smileys -  facepalm faint)
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« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2013, 06:52:54 PM »

Along with Biff's 'gene that makes you want to live off grid' I got a 'mean gene', but hopefully I can fight that part of my nature!

 genuflect

I'm here because I want to make as few mistakes as possible. Message received.
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camillitech
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« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2013, 07:10:40 PM »

Can you tell me if 'AC coupled' means 'grid tie'? or what is meant by 'partial AC coupled' ?


Hi V 'AC coupling' is a way of using a regular GTI in conjunction with on 'off grid' inverter. It is more efficient if you are using the power rather than storing it, it has other advantages too in that you can use different voltage devices to charge the same battery bank and you can use higher voltages so have your turbines, panels etc further from your battery bank. This link has links in it to several useful sites http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/2012/05/15/commissioning-the-powerspout/ including a better explanation by StephenDV http://www.casanogaldelasbrujas.com/blog/2009/05/13/sma-sunny-island-ac-coupling/ from his excellent blog. As GHP points out you don't have to restrict your self to SMA kit, I use a Trace inverter and a Windy Boy for my AC coupled hydro turbine, however the SMA stuff will communicate with each other and 'throttle' PV output if required.

A combination of both systems is what I use so you get the best of both worlds and the greatest flexibility.

Batteries, don't mess about, buy could FLA ones, forklift cells or my choice Rolls from Navitron http://www.navitron.org.uk/product_detail.php?proID=798&catID=157 http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,20440.0.html

Good luck, Paul
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http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
V
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« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2013, 07:17:12 PM »

also some forklift service firms could supply you a complete pack.


Should I ring a few forklift service firms and ask their prices? When you say complete pack, does that mean all wired in the right configuration?

Batteries, don't mess about, buy could FLA ones, forklift cells or my choice Rolls from Navitron http://www.navitron.org.uk/product_detail.php?proID=798&catID=157 http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,20440.0.html


I was reading your blog this afternoon. WOW! Your story is amazing.
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stephendv
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« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2013, 07:23:18 AM »

When comparing battery prices, you'll have to scour the datasheets from the manufacturers to get them all on a level playing field:

- Compare the Ah capacity using the same C rating, for deep cycle batts they usually provide a C20 and C100 rates, make sure you compare like with like.
- Check what the rated cycle life will be at 80% Depth of Discharge (DoD). 
- Work out the price of the battery based on the cycle life, so that you have a GBP/cycle figure- then you can easily compare batts with each other.  Batts which appear to be cheap at the outset can actually turn out to be more expensive because they have a low cycle life.

Some options for batts:
- OPzS expensive quality stationary batts
- PzS forklift batteries, similar internal construction to OPzS except they have a higher SG electrolyte and may have more antimony in the plates (to harden them) - so might have slightly less overall life than OPzS and a higher self-discharge rate
- Flat plate batteries like Rolls series 5000 or series 4000 or Trojan L16

The Rolls series 5000 have quite a high rated cycle life at 80% DoD, looks like 2100 cycles: http://support.rollsbattery.com/support/articles/8136-cycle-life-vs-depth-of-discharge-5000-series  the norm for forklifts is 1500 or 1300.  Still, it all depends on the price per cycle to figure out which is the actually cheaper version over its lifetime.
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clockmanFR
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« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2013, 07:58:56 AM »

Morning V,

Like what Stephendv just said.

Battery packs from a forklift supplier, are best bought all at the same time, where each is matching, same age etc.

Here I juggle with 10 different strings of 48v, (string: 4off 12v batteries, series wired, the same type/make and amperage), but this means that some of my batteries are older than my others, so end up working harder than other strings. So in my experience its best if you buy in one go.
 Some forklift battery folk list on Fleebay, you'll get some indication of cost.

Here we Mart-micro cycle on our battery bank, (giving my particular batteries extended life) and only allow about 4% discharge, (normally night time use), and only run certain heavy equipment when the daylight/wind arrives.

Remember, here we come at the Energy creation from a different point of view, yes, we have the Grid connection, but use it as a standby generator on the cheap time tariff. However, cost effectively we can make our power generation work and re=coup our costs, but only as long as I do all the renewable generation manufacturing/installing and maintenance.

If you do the sums and get all your power generation stuff commercially, I doubt if you will ever beat the Grid kwh costs.

 


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billi
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« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2013, 08:52:50 AM »

Perhaps have a look around in the rest of Europe as well , i know of  off grid  people who got their PzS Forklift  from a Battery production  company in Poland  called "Bater" , they do also (S) OPzS     (S) for solar i suppose ..., very attractive prices

for example about 2000  for a about 35 Kwh  PzS 630 ah   Battery

or stephen s supplier "Sunlight "  vrom Greece sounds  good as well



I know,   transport ......

Best Regards
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« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2013, 09:29:28 AM »

And then there is the Biff method of aquiring forklift batteries,
                             Buy the whole forklift but test the forklift around the yard before parting with the lolly.Sometimes you can find an old forklift with a decent set of nice fresh batts and the vendor is so busy trying to hide the failed test defects that he overlooks the fact that the batteries are worth twice what he is asking for the whole plant.The good thing about buying the forklift is that you can reverse it nice and neatly into where you want the batts and remove the tines.Just connect your solar to the big anderson connector already provided.(You dont have to faff about with 50kg bars of soap and go looking for heavy duty cell connectors) If you play it right you should be able to have an 80amp charger along with it.Keep it well covered over and its always there to do some heavy lifting,Unfortunatly,I found that all the eletric forklift I bought,had very low ground clearence and I wasted time trying to pull them out little puddle holes with the digger.The electric forklifts that operate inside foodstores are horribly expensive to get tested.They have to run for a full 8 hours carrying massive quotas of tons and the batts would suffer more in a week than they would under 10yrs of wind/solar renewable conditions.
           Its worth a thought.
                                   Biff
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camillitech
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« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2013, 09:58:40 AM »



Buy proper new batteries, put them in a proper ventilated shed, with a fiber glass or plastic tray under them, insulate them, forget Anderson connectors, every connection is a weak link. Sit them on pallets or a sturdy shelf so they can be topped up without bending over them. Use heavy cables and proper fuses, once your batteries are in place they won't need anything other than topping up with distilled water every fortnight for the next ten years.

You are building your dream house, just like us, don't feck about with second hand stuff and bodged up connectors. Budget for a well insulated concrete floored renewable energy shed for your generator, inverters and batteries all in the same place, well lit and with the exhaust pointing away from the house.







My sixteen Rolls batteries will be going on that heavy shelf at the back, well off the ground and well lit. The shed is 6" framed with Rockwool and Kingspan between OSB with corrugated iron on the outside and double glazing.

Good luck, Paul
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http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
V
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« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2013, 11:39:44 AM »

I'll be offline until late this afternoon, Wednesday is Cheesemaking day!
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biff
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« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2013, 12:12:00 PM »

And then there are those with good experience that dont agree,
                                      But thats the challenge in itself.I Look at Paul,s wonderfull installation and I know he is doing a great job.Make no mistake, Paul builds to last but so do I.Paul would look at my mongrel installation in which I have strung over 2 ton of different types,different ahs, of cells together in series and like the experts say "No can do" but 6 years later they are still running better than ever.These cells have some pecular little quirks,one half drinks twice as much as the other half(rain  water),like happy family members,one half is different from the other."But" they work beautifully and the electricity that come to the house is the best sine wave money can buy.
      I am also recycling old forklifts batteries that come my way and not buying new ones.
    However,Paul is right,If you start off right with the proper cells and do as he says you are guaranteed a good job,
  Paul and I differ over chinese wind turbines as well but in the best of humour.Paul will get a wind turbine,strip it down and examine it properly like the exellent engineer that he is but me,,Well,!!,,"Out of the box, up the pole and get to work". hysteria. I would cry my eyes out if I spent hours making a special turbine that was going to be around for the next 30 years only to see it get frazzled by a bolt of lightening and that does happen.
 If I am honest,which I sometimes strive to be,I would say that Paul has got it right but I get all the excitement and fun. hysteria
   I must not confuse the issue and so far the choice of 48vdc in nice new forklift cells is the way to go+ a Mr Lister like Paul,s with a good charging system,Loads of lovely PV and you are sailing.
                                                            Biff
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« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2013, 04:04:31 PM »

Sorry to butt in, since I can bring absolutely nothing to this table myself, but as soon as I'd read Vickie's first couple of posts I knew these were going to be fascinating threads to follow.

Anyways, just a thought, but isn't this Rogerico's bread and butter - installing off-grid systems with PV, wind, generator and batts? I wonder if he can be tempted away from Sunny Greece?

Mart.
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Just call me Mart.     Cardiff: 5.58kWp PV - (3.58kWp SE3500 + 2kWp SE2200 WNW)
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