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Author Topic: Shopping List(er)  (Read 11873 times)
V
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« on: October 07, 2013, 07:36:47 PM »

Have decided that the first two items for Easterdown's shopping list are:

1. Water and pumping system
2. Buy a Lister

Re: 1 - I'm seeing someone tomorrow about pumps and storage tanks for our well. They know we are off grid, but am I wrong to be surprised that his initial email recommends a 1 kW for a pumping system?
==============
 The smallest motored submersible pump for this application will have an input power requirement of just over 500 watts.
Most domestic properties operate effectively with a pressure of 3 BAR but the flow required can vary to accommodate the number of bathrooms and loos etc. A pump fitted with a 510 watt input power requirement will produce 4 UK gpm at a pressure of 3 BAR. The pump output in isolation may struggle to provide enough pressurised water when multiple bathrooms are in use. To overcome this a series of pressure tanks could be sited alongside the pump which would provide an adequate reserve of pressurised water during peak demand. This arrangement would also be beneficial to the power demanded by the system as a whole due to the pump starting less frequently.
 
In conclusion it is likely that the water pumping system as a whole will require about 1kW of electricity to function effectively.
 ===========================
Would DC pumps make more sense?

And 2:
These Listers are currently for sale via internet - comments on suitability greatly appreciated. For example:

http://www.preloved.co.uk/adverts/show/107865197/lister-power-plant-generator.html
(bit confused as to why they talk about a Hawker-Siddley engine)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261299490964?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271277159321?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2648

Thanks,

Vickie
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spencer1885
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« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2013, 08:04:25 PM »

You might be over complicating things.
If you feed every thing directly from one small pump then you might have a problem.
A loft tank will feed by gravity and only the washing machine and the drinking water filter system needs feeding directly from the pump.
Your pump is a small IBO 1" WZ250 peripheral pump with 24Lts pressure vessel and a 250 watt motor.
DC pumps will wear out in half the time of a AC pump.
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V
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« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2013, 08:13:33 PM »

So have I understood that you are suggesting a single pump with a 250 Watt motor? Will that alone pressurise the Drinking water supply and supply to the washing machine  to 3 or 4 bar?

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« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2013, 08:21:02 PM »

I know Heinz all about pumping water from wells, but if it was me I would also go for a smaller pump and have a tank in the loft.
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Fintray
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« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2013, 08:21:30 PM »

My choice would be the Preloved one, Hawker Siddley owned Lister Petter.
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spencer1885
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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2013, 08:28:27 PM »

In a word yes.
A washing machine will work at 1 bar.
4 bar is not needed and 2.5 bar is a common pressure for pumps to come set at.
If you are going to build a shower may I suggest a rain shower head and a gravity fed mixer, as this is a very nice shower set up and is economical on water.
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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2013, 08:38:25 PM »

In phase 1* we won't have a loft. But we will be storing water in the barn which is tall enough to build a platform. Would that give us the gravity feed we need?

*described over at blog - www.easterdown.co.uk
The drawing in 'we can build this' is going to be built in two phases, the bit to the left is under permitted development, phase 1 and we will live in that while we build phase 2
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« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2013, 08:40:17 PM »

My choice would be the Preloved one, Hawker Siddley owned Lister Petter.

Someone on this forum mentioned that Lister Petter isn't as good as Lister before Petter. I am also an engine novice. Should that put me off?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 08:41:52 PM by V » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2013, 08:50:06 PM »

OMG V,

steer well clear of those two links on eBlag, number 1 is an ST3 and a total piece of 4 letter words are my favorite and number two is actually a Lister/Petter 3000RPM lump of carp. As for the first link there is no picture so I can't comment, however the clue 'Hawker Siddley' does actually bode well for it means that it could be a 'Hawker Siddley Power Plant' and therefore a genuine Lister generator set.

The problem with buying a 'Lister' is two fold, one they often supplied just engines that people bolted pieces of carp onto and then called them 'Lister generators' when they were just in fact a Lister engine with some rubbish alternator stuck on the end. The other one is that Lister bought out Petter in the 1980's and re badged Petters high revving lumps of carp as Lister (as in link two).

You need a genuine LPP (Lister Power Plant) or Lister 'Start O Matic' set with a Brush alternator and they are easily recognised due to their length. These sets have alternators that have substantial bearings at each end and a flexible coupling that drives the alternator. Other sets are directly coupled, rely on the prime mover to support the front of the alternator and are thus shorter. This is obviously much cheaper to produce but allows both heat and vibration to be transmitted to the alternator, thus shortening its life.

There are still hundreds of these sets about with just 'standby' hours on them and you need to be looking for an SR2, ST2 or TS2, possibly an SR3 or HR2 if you see one for less than 1k with only 50 hours on the clock.

I've had a look on eBlag and there is absolutely nothing on there at the moment that isn't carp, apart from this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/37-5-KVA-Lister-generator-/190920033325?pt=UK_BOI_FarmingEquipment_RL&hash=item2c73b8842d which is WAAAY too big.

As a guide, steer clear of anything that has wheels on it or an integral fuel tank, you are looking for a generator that has been bolted to a lump of concrete in a bank, police station, bunker, telephone exchange or branch of Woolworths. It will have sat there for thirty years, been run for an hour a year, be as good as new and see you into the grave.



Something like Harry



or Cyril, both of them less that 1100 delivered to a wee island off a larger island on the west coast and both of them with 50 hours on the clock.

Good luck, Paul
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'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
spencer1885
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« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2013, 08:51:49 PM »

My choice would be the Preloved one, Hawker Siddley owned Lister Petter.

Someone on this forum mentioned that Lister Petter isn't as good as Lister before Petter. I am also an engine novice. Should that put me off?
 
  Lister/Petter all good
Petters are very good to, but the most important thing to remember is you must buy a generator rated at 1500 rpm and with no more HP than 12 as any thing larger will use to much fuel.
Electric stop start would also be very good as an inverter can stop start to top up a battery bank.
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spencer1885
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« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2013, 09:06:12 PM »

In phase 1* we won't have a loft. But we will be storing water in the barn which is tall enough to build a platform. Would that give us the gravity feed we need?

*described over at blog - www.easterdown.co.uk
The drawing in 'we can build this' is going to be built in two phases, the bit to the left is under permitted development, phase 1 and we will live in that while we build phase 2

Yes a tank high up in a building near to the house/building will do the job.
We used to have a water tank in a barn next to the building we lived in and at the time the tank was feed with a 12v demand pump from rain water tanks.
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camillitech
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« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2013, 09:06:14 PM »

If it runs at 3000rpm it's a Petter if it runs at 1500rpm it's a Lister, Petters pish out oil, break exhaust manifolds, don't start when cold and scream like a banshee  Grin
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« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2013, 09:11:39 PM »

If it runs at 3000rpm it's a Petter if it runs at 1500rpm it's a Lister, Petters pish out oil, break exhaust manifolds, don't start when cold and scream like a banshee  Grin

Paul, not all Petters run at 3000rpm
I can think of 2 petters that run at 1500rpm, but Listers are much more common and I think what ever you suggest is going to be the best option.
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V
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« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2013, 09:12:27 PM »

Thank you all for the very good advice. Sounds like I will need to have some luck for the right thing to appear by xmas (yes, we may be in phase one by then. Probably good to try out the worst PV conditions to start off with!)


May I post links here every so often for opinions in hopes that the right thing might show up? Any thoughts about how to find the right Mr Lister?

One of the reasons I'm interested in a straight (?) lister is because I was told that a Lister is simple and even I could learn to take it apart and put it back together again. I have always wanted to learn about engines and this seems like a good way to do this.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 09:16:55 PM by V » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2013, 09:25:42 PM »

If it runs at 3000rpm it's a Petter if it runs at 1500rpm it's a Lister, Petters pish out oil, break exhaust manifolds, don't start when cold and scream like a banshee  Grin

Paul, not all Petters run at 3000rpm
I can think of 2 petters that run at 1500rpm, but Listers are much more common and I think what ever you suggest is going to be the best option.

So can I Spencer but I think you'll find they are either dumper engines or traffic light generators, none of which are any use to V  hysteria
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'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
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