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Author Topic: Advice appreciated on roof insulation  (Read 24861 times)
wookey
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« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2013, 12:04:26 AM »

Quote
Quote
There used to be a product on the market that consisted of 12mm PB bonded to about 25mm PU foam.
Yes. I've used it, but there is some caution with that stuff as it doesn't include a vapour barrier.

I used some of this back in 1995 and it had a foil layer between plasterboard and PU/PIR foam. So it can (and usually does IME) include a vapour barrier. However there is no way to make that barrier continuous at the joins because you can't get the tape in, and as other-power points out it costs significantly more (in materials) to do it this way. (30% more last time I looked, not 50%, but still significant for a worse job). The only advantage is speed of assembly which of course matters to builders.
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Wookey
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« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2013, 12:07:35 AM »

I will add that its very difficult to do detailing with the bonded board.
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don0301
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« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2013, 08:25:49 AM »

To do a 100% job the plaster board will have to come off and the bats installed tightly, or PU foamed in.  You could then over board to minimise the cold bridiging from the rafters.

The bonded board is very expensive, I would use standard PIR with taped joints and duplex plaster board over that with screws through to the timber, cost  will be around half of the bonded board.

 


I think the cut of the this says it all really.

Cheers

Jon

Yes, more examples of the outstanding quality of a 'new-build':










After sorting the insulation, this is next on the agenda..
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biff
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« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2013, 09:29:38 AM »

Mornng Don0301,
                  For what it is worth,I would not mention the straight joints in the brickwork.If you do you will get logged as a fussy old sort who needs to be humoured but fobbed off.The straightjoint is a crime among bricklayers.There is no doubt about that but from a structural point of view the company can argue that it dont make the slightest difference.Also,the DPC is rolled out over the vents and under the door cills. To repair the straight joints one would need to hack out the bricks back to the place where they made the mistake and then relay them.Easier said than done and requires a skilled bricklayer who will leave it both looking good and your DPV still intact.The irony is that they will never leave it looking right because the same brickies meant to change the bond but were too lazy to step over in quarter bond to prevent the straightjoints.
  I worked for Wimpey years ago and they employ a legal team that would leave the oil companies gasping.So thread carefully.
                                                                                    Biff
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 09:31:48 AM by biff » Logged

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don0301
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« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2013, 09:56:59 AM »

Hi Biff

I fully understand what you're saying, I have been very careful to not upset as I soon learned after registering these problems with NHBC, that they weren't actually covered by the 10 year warranty, even though the insulation anyway does not comply with building regs! not sure about the bricks.

Anyway, they are now aware of the bricks, the TW rep has talked about building a plinth to cover the mistake, but since has not confirmed if that will actually happen.

My efforts are sorting the insulation out for now, as that is the priority.

I'm aware that the outer leaf of a building is not structural, but weather proofing only.

Still, how it could have been done, and also not quality checked.....

Don

P.S. My plan is to sell up in 2-4 years or so, and move back to God's country.

Needless to say I'm pretty sure it won't be to a new build!
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biff
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« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2013, 05:29:05 PM »

Its a bit of a puzzle as to why the brickies did that,
                                      They started of changing the bond on both sides of the 12ft blank.Normally there is a reason as to why this is done and it has to do with the brickwork over the head of the frames(avoiding cuts or half bricks) but in this case the brickies changed it on both sides,leaving themselves back to square one.Perhaps they were not speaking to one another or had the big head on Monday morning but it was already set out under the DPC so all the figuring out was already done.Believe it or not,You would see that all over Germany and Half Bond is not allowed in Germany,its all quarter bond,weird,.The first job I worked on there were Polish trowels next door.We were cracking up laughing at them because they were building inside party walls going up 6 courses with these 6 x 6 x 4 inch blocks,straighted jointed all the way.However we were to see a lot of that type of work from one end of Germany to the other.Its just the way they do things.Thats what I found hard to understand.Here we were in Germany building like there was no tomorrow,making very good money and keeping the Germans happy but the way they built houses was totally alien to the way it is done in Ireland and the UK.It is very hard to explain.The house builders must be a totally different race of Germans to the ones who build the cars.I liked the Germans and got on with them like a house on fire but their housebuilding antics left me quite worried.
 I remember sitting down with the crew and a translator trying to explain that the weight of their roofing timbers was going to spread the walls and collapse the houses.The foreman gave me a big hug and a slap on the back and they all roared withy the laughing.That cured me from opening my big mouth.Roofing rafters were 12" x 4" and Purlions were 18" x 9".Not bolted just nailed and left sitting on the spinewalls. There were ordinary housing estate houses with 11" cavity walls.Maybe they had very heavy snow, hysteria We did 6 pairs and then left for a more valuable job.It was a bit like you would expect If you went to work for the Martians, Grin
               Biff
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daserra
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« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2013, 06:26:52 PM »

I work with a German fella who always insists roofs should be nailed and not screwed/bolted so that they can move!
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don0301
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« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2013, 12:57:20 AM »

Its a bit of a puzzle as to why the brickies did that,
                                      They started of changing the bond on both sides of the 12ft blank.Normally there is a reason as to why this is done and it has to do with the brickwork over the head of the frames(avoiding cuts or half bricks) but in this case the brickies changed it on both sides,leaving themselves back to square one.Perhaps they were not speaking to one another or had the big head on Monday morning but it was already set out under the DPC so all the figuring out was already done.Believe it or not,You would see that all over Germany and Half Bond is not allowed in Germany,its all quarter bond,weird,.The first job I worked on there were Polish trowels next door.We were cracking up laughing at them because they were building inside party walls going up 6 courses with these 6 x 6 x 4 inch blocks,straighted jointed all the way.However we were to see a lot of that type of work from one end of Germany to the other.Its just the way they do things.Thats what I found hard to understand.Here we were in Germany building like there was no tomorrow,making very good money and keeping the Germans happy but the way they built houses was totally alien to the way it is done in Ireland and the UK.It is very hard to explain.The house builders must be a totally different race of Germans to the ones who build the cars.I liked the Germans and got on with them like a house on fire but their housebuilding antics left me quite worried.
 I remember sitting down with the crew and a translator trying to explain that the weight of their roofing timbers was going to spread the walls and collapse the houses.The foreman gave me a big hug and a slap on the back and they all roared withy the laughing.That cured me from opening my big mouth.Roofing rafters were 12" x 4" and Purlions were 18" x 9".Not bolted just nailed and left sitting on the spinewalls. There were ordinary housing estate houses with 11" cavity walls.Maybe they had very heavy snow, hysteria We did 6 pairs and then left for a more valuable job.It was a bit like you would expect If you went to work for the Martians, Grin
               Biff

I served a few years in Germany in the Army, beer for breakfast before work, and beer delivered like we had milk. Very strange.

regarding my 'quality' brickwork, the mortar gives good clues to the quality of work.. I'm sure my home being built 2006 at the height of the boom had nothing to do with it...

I called my council regarding building regs, their response.."oh we don't do new estates anymore, it's done by NHBC (Who sign off what they insure!) so we have no control.."

Me "But surely you are the over-riding authority??"

Council "We didn't inspect, nothing we can do.."

Got to love England...
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« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2013, 08:16:31 AM »

Don, I can't offer much advice but I also have a new build and if its any comfort, you are not alone, the ones built by many large house builders are to a similiar quality. The general theme is that eveything is ok, but certainly not to a high standard. E.g. brickwork is fine, but the bricks were left covered in snots and there is a large variation in the size of the morter joints, not a problem other than it doesn't look as good as it could. We had an extension built and the brickwork there is perfect, no snots, nice  even joints and perfectly straight - puts the rest of the house to shame.

In a neighbours house they neglected to connect the waste pipe from the bath. When they moved in his wife decided to have a nice long soak in the bath for the first time, filled the bath to the brim and all was great  until she pulled the plug....

Even worse, I have heard of another house where the downstairs toilet soil pipe was not connected and was discharging into the void under the block and beam floor. This went un noticed for many years until the build up solids started to cause rather smelly damp patches.

On the subject of insulation, when we had our loft converted the (council) building inspector checked that joints on the insulation were taped with foil tape. Even insisted that insulation was fixed on the back the doors that provided access to the crawl spaces, and he came back and checked as well.
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« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2013, 09:00:55 AM »

I would blame the building regs.
                         The UK building regs has been the same for many years.They allow things like wooden window and door cills.Untreated rafter and joists ends.No thermal barrier and insulation is left to the builder to see if he has enough left over to insulate the house Grin.
  They certainly do not allow wooden window and door cills in the Irish republic and the DPCs concerning all those details are very strict.I think that the Scottish building regs are similar to the Irish ones but we had had the mandatory radon barrier for a good 20 years or more.
  Then there are the actual house builders themselves.Not everyone builds like Charles Church in England or Brendan Gildea in Ireland.These guys went out of their way to produce good work and give the customer a decent house to live in.
       When I last worked for Wimpey in Isella Park in Ashford in the early 90s,they built nice neat little houses.All dry lined,minmum insulation,minum floor area in each room,minmum everything.Thankfully the building regs changed shortly afterwards and the minmum floor area for a first and second bedroom was forced up.Some of the houses we built there had "MASTER BEDROOMS" 8ft x 7ft and a second bed 8ft x5ft.
 We did leave good quality brickwork behind us because thats what drew the people,nice lawns/tarmac and good brickwork.(+ of course the very heavy advertising)We were asked to do work in a massive estate outside Maidstone but the quality of the work already done was cronic bad(the absolute worst we had ever seen).It was a good job that we gave it a miss,the company went bust owing everyone.
                       Biff
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don0301
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« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2013, 09:12:47 AM »

Thanks for all the replies guys.

Just a waiting game to see what TWimpey rep comes up with.

Fingers crossed the 'specialist' will advice him only way to do it removing plasterboard and relaying kingspan properly.

You never know, they might even put thicker layer in to todays regs, rather than what they were 7 years ago! Can always hope!

I'll keep posting as and when I hear anything.

I've had a temp. meter in one of the top rooms last few weeks. top 2 rooms are consistently about 6 degrees colder than rest of house, heating on or off.

I'm sure the small radiator in each of the top 2 rooms are too small for the size of the rooms too..which can't help.

Just hope when I finally move back to Yorkshire I can find a suitable property to go to town on with insulation etc before moving in

Never a TWimpey new build ever again!

Don
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 09:16:30 AM by don0301 » Logged
offthegridandy
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« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2013, 10:41:25 AM »

Hi Biff,

we used to do work for Charles Church. Hi spec, proper inspections and pride in the finish.  Mr Charles was proud to put his name on the board.  Of course Bryants bought the company which then got rolled up into the large conglomerate that now exists and later C.C houses were not finished as well in my opinion.

Best of luck Don, listen to what Twimpey have to say before making any counter arguments/offers. Never show your hand until your ready to argue. Basic consumer law/sale of goods act would actually cover this.  Goods (your house) must be of merchantable quality and be what they are described to be.  Ie building regs are the "description" and your goods don't match that. Time elapsed shouldn't be relevant.

By the by even big builders don't like bad publicity and the TV consumer programmes, face book and twitter all give a good opportunity to spread negative views about them.  A stick to hold in reserve if a satisfactory conclusion is not reached.

Andy
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don0301
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« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2013, 10:51:07 AM »

Hi Andy

Yes, all thoughts I have had. Thanks for your post.

TBH, although it's going slow, the TWimpey rep has said that if it's wrong they'll put it right. It could have been worse. NHBC were useless, and it has opened my eyes to how worthless the 10 year new build warranty is!

Totally agree with the time frame, it's only by chance that I found out the real problem.

Fingers crossed..

Don

P.S. I did get a glossy full report from NHBC. I can post it if anyone wants a laugh?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 10:52:49 AM by don0301 » Logged
don0301
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« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2013, 05:31:15 PM »

Finally went mental at Taylor Wimpey..

Got call from the rep 4/11 saying a "man in a van" would be here that week to do the work.

Later got call that he would be here 21/11.

On 21/11 rep turned up with another man, said work wouldn't be done, and they were here to see what needed doing....(Err, didn't you do that on the last visit??)

Decided that putting Kingspan in from within the loft not feasible as too tight a space....(Err, I knew that from the start, never could see how they could do it like that)

Rep said would speak to a specialist and get in touch

Hadn't heard anything by Mon 2/12 so called Customer Services to complain about lack of communication and action, told them I wanted to speak to manager and I wanted to know what work was going to be done before I authorised it. Was told on phone that rep had it "all booked and sorted" and would be in touch in a day or two.

Not heard anything until today, some idiot from customer services rang, knew nothing about my complaint then was rude to me!

Later got call from rep, asked him what work will be done, his reply, man in loft pushing kingspan down!

Lost it with him, denied he'd said previous..then veiled threat that "NHBC said not covered"

Told him fine, I'll get solicitor and papers involved. No need for that he says!

Now he's gonna get someone with an infrared camera to come and check as he denies all roof is defect, that it's "only around the dormer windows"

Will an infrared camera show up defect insulation through the plasterboard?

get feeling he's just trying to bodge something, while I'm insisting they do it correctly

Been 2 months now and not even an answer on what they're gonna do, never mind an actual date..





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« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2013, 05:36:43 PM »

Depends on his camera, dont let him use a short lense camera as it will focus on a small area and the scale will read from the coldest part to the hottest part, so if there is only 2 degrees in it the scale will adjust to that.  before he comes, put the heating up as much as you can this will exaserbabte the situation and show it as bad as it is.  Another suggestion is to communicate in email or record your phone calls.

cheers

Jon
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