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Author Topic: ASHP on BBC You and Yours  (Read 11359 times)
titan
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« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2013, 07:15:00 PM »


I think you are double counting the benefits for your comparison of the two heat sources.  Doing some/all of the work yourself, saving money, and then also including a grant,

For you situation, if you have insulated as far as you can then a GSHP might suit but on the most part, installing a cheaper heating option and spending the difference on insulation would be the better option IMO. 


I have explained twice already but just to be clear my original post did not include any grant for the comparison. I would also have been installing the oil boiler so both had no labour installation costs. It was not meant to be an exact comparison but an illustration of how in the right situation, a well insulated house with UFH and a heat pump are very efficient  cheaper than mains gas  http://www.nottenergy.com/energy_cost_comparison/ and almost twice as cheap as oil.

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clockmanFR
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« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2013, 08:15:38 PM »

Hi Titan,

Just a matter of info if you please, What size of pump are you using and for what distance and diameter of pipe work are you pumping.

I am interested, as you did the install DIY.

So its interesting to see best costs.

What amount of cash are you putting aside for maintenance breakdowns etc.?

What is the life expectancy of your stuff?

Regards that 3kW pump, been thinking, (its late at night so I am doomed). Pumping up vertically from a depth of 50 meters plus, of water at 25mm diameter, and say 8 pipes that's a fair weight of water to lift.?

Here's another pic of half way install down the big bore hole.


* Untitled.jpg (48.18 KB, 511x533 - viewed 277 times.)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 08:32:55 PM by clockmanFR » Logged

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M
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« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2013, 08:27:27 PM »


Regards that 3kW pump, been thinking, (its late at night so I am doomed). Pumping up vertically from a depth of 50 meters plus, of water at 25mm diameter, and say 8 pipes that's a fair weight of water to lift.?

Ok time to make a fool of myself, on a subject I know nothing about ..... but why is the water being lifted? Won't there be an equal weight of water going down (as up)? So just losses in the system, or have I confused myself?

Mart.
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clockmanFR
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« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2013, 08:45:36 PM »

Badly worded, I should have said, "Move" and not "Lift".

Some bright spark will calculate the weight of water that needs shifting.

Trouble is Mart there are about 4 main types of bore hole systems and that depends upon the underground conditions.

One is a pressurised system where you have an injection well and an extraction well suitably positioned. Other are different type of U tube configurations.

As I said, I looked into the GSHP, and in the end put electric matt underfloor heating all over and powered it by PV and Wind turbines, but not running from the batteries.
 So embedded materials, maintenance, boilers, radiators, copper, etc are just not necessary.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 09:28:40 PM by clockmanFR » Logged

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baker
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« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2013, 09:57:06 PM »

 highly experienced installers can do the  job
 No point in teaching the experts  hysteria
 baker
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titan
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« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2013, 10:04:27 PM »

Hi Titan,

Just a matter of info if you please, What size of pump are you using and for what distance and diameter of pipe work are you pumping.

I am interested, as you did the install DIY.

So its interesting to see best costs.

What amount of cash are you putting aside for maintenance breakdowns etc.?

What is the life expectancy of your stuff?

Regards that 3kW pump, been thinking, (its late at night so I am doomed). Pumping up vertically from a depth of 50 meters plus, of water at 25mm diameter, and say 8 pipes that's a fair weight of water to lift.?

Here's another pic of half way install down the big bore hole.



Hi Clockman

There are just two sorts of loops whether a borehole or not, that is open and closed. That is where the fluid containing the heat is recirculated or just used once ( via a secondary heat exchanger) Either way the loop going through the heat pump  heat exchanger will be a closed circuit. From your photo it looks like a standard closed loop in a conductive grout. The circuit will be closed and pressurised so the pump does not have to overcome any head just the internal friction and is normally a typical domestic circulator, certainly not 3kW but that may be some commercial set up as the boreholes are normally just 100mm with a single loop.
My installation is an 8kW unit with a normal ground array. I used 40mm geothermal  plastic pipe. 32mm water pipe is more often used it is slightly cheaper. I did two loops of 250m each. The biggest problems are getting the two loop exactly equal length, filling with water making sure all the air is removed and then getting 125 ltrs of anti freeze into the loops and well mixed. All this has to be completed and the loops pressurised before backfilling.

Life expectancy is the same as any other mechanical bit of plant but there is not a lot to go wrong and certainly with Kensa all the bits are off the shelf items not proprietary like a lot of other manufacturers. 



As you can see all they are basically is  just  two circ pumps, a compressor and a heat exchanger.

Ian


« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 10:38:06 PM by titan » Logged
Other-Power
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« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2013, 11:17:07 PM »

In relation to the OP and that the ladies choice is to go down heat pump route 'cause they are cheep to run' is wrong cause she hasnít insulated or agreed to and didnít, that.

Ian, I still donít feel you are making a fair cost comparison, double counting or not, doing it DIY is not a fair comparison for people to judge the merit of a technology on unless its easy to do DIY correctly, will have to agree to disagree if you disagree.

Clearly this lady had either an idea in her head or was sold well buy a 'good' sales man or had money to burn.  As per normal itís everyone elseís fault and 'isnít it bad that the industry does this' journalism.  This story is along the lines of 'I donít get the broadband speeds I was told I would' or 'I bought this new car and it uses more fuel then they said it would', no personal due diligence, no first principles understanding, just moan moan moan when things donít work out.

Cheers

Jon
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« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2013, 11:25:24 PM »

Absolutely right Jon, people moan because it is easier than actually thinking about the issue and coming to a proper conclusion.
Gavin put it pretty suscinctly earlier in the thread.

 A system was designed, only part of the system was installed, it didn't work properly, no kidding sherlock fight fight

Desp
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Other-Power
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« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2013, 11:46:46 PM »

Where do they dig up these 'experts' to give over their opinion?
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« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2013, 09:53:22 AM »

I believe i am appreciative of both sides of this argument but how would you feel if you bought a car advertised as 60mpg but only did 30mpg.  So how many of you know how they do this test and how it is applicable to you?   The list is endless of products subjected to laid down tests but fail to meet this standard in real life.

This women cannot be expected to be an expert in ASHP and many on this forum struggle with it.  To make this house suitable for a ASHP would really have meant building new.  It should NEVER have been fitted and for the trade to blame the customer is a disgrace.  This position is the starting point in law so that the trade person would have to produce a contract removing the obligation -bet they didnot.

Ken
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titan
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« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2013, 10:07:17 AM »


Ian, I still donít feel you are making a fair cost comparison, double counting or not, doing it DIY is not a fair comparison for people to judge the merit of a technology on unless its easy to do DIY correctly,



Jon,

My original post was specifically about my situation, my costs and my choice nothing else, everyone's situation is different. This forum has a lot  of people who DIY with wind, PV water and heat pumps. I suspect most have done their research and made their choices based on what they want to achieve, not how easy it is, it is the challenge that makes it more interesting.

Ian
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skyewright
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« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2013, 10:37:00 AM »

I believe i am appreciative of both sides of this argument but how would you feel if you bought a car advertised as 60mpg but only did 30mpg.
Depends on whether or not you had a caravan hitched to the car throughout the 30mpg test?

Just trying to suggest a possible car analogy equivalent for the missing insulation...
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David
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Other-Power
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« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2013, 10:56:44 AM »

I believe i am appreciative of both sides of this argument but how would you feel if you bought a car advertised as 60mpg but only did 30mpg.  So how many of you know how they do this test and how it is applicable to you?   The list is endless of products subjected to laid down tests but fail to meet this standard in real life.

This women cannot be expected to be an expert in ASHP and many on this forum struggle with it.  To make this house suitable for a ASHP would really have meant building new.  It should NEVER have been fitted and for the trade to blame the customer is a disgrace.  This position is the starting point in law so that the trade person would have to produce a contract removing the obligation -bet they didnot.

Ken

If my new car did that said 60mpg, did 30mpg, I drove three times as far as I did with the last car, then complained it was costing me three times as much and blaming the fact I floor it everywhere whilst carrying loads of weight and run with flat tyres on the manufacture I would feel a bit stupid cause I haven't rationalised the situation before forming my opinion.  This sort of thing that annoys me, the lady even said she did her research after she had it installed?!?!?  Who waits a year to see if their electricity consumption has gone up after installing a heat pump?!?!?  This is personal due diligence, its so easy for this kind of behavior to be blamed on miss selling or poor industry practice.  I know that this case was prior to the much better MCS requirements we have now and may not have even been installed under MCS, we have moved on, the lady was part of a trail, there is risk that it might go wrong, was this not identified by her before signing up, did she read her contract, who knows?

Whilst there are cases where heat pumps arnt sized correctly and insulation has not been installed, there are plenty of well designed heat pumps working in retro fit situations and without knowing the contract and the agreed detail on the insulation that was or wasn't meat to be installed its very difficult to comment on the situation from an informed point, its all speculation.  

Getting agreement in writing and tighter contracts would have solved this issue for the customer and the installer, if the lady has a case of miss selling she should go to small claims, if she hasnt, cause she agreed to insulate or agree that the trial had risk, then she should shut up.  She now knows regardless that she should insulate but even now she hasn't, whilst I understand that she is a pensioner and I am sure she has a peg leg, she could have played the situation to her advantage rather then moaning about it on national radio, she could have been proactive and worked with Scottish Gas to resolve the issue.  Maybe she tried that and it didn't work, who knows?  This is sloppy journalism on the account of the BBC, such a small part of the story has been displayed.

Clearly it wasnt correct technology for this lady.
Clearly it was a trial.
Clearly she did her research after she signed the contract and had the unit installed.
Clearly she knows she needs insulation and for what ever reason hasnt got enough.
We all know heating is a subjective matter, to me, this lady dosnt.
The way the situation is being portrayed by the BBC is sloppy.

Cheers

Jon





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M
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« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2013, 11:19:31 AM »

Who waits a year to see if their electricity consumption has gone up after installing a heat pump?!?!?  This is personal due diligence, its so easy for this kind of behavior to be blamed on miss selling or poor industry practice.  I know that this case was prior to the much better MCS requirements we have now and may not have even been installed under MCS, we have moved on, the lady was part of a trail, there is risk that it might go wrong, was this not identified by her before signing up, did she read her contract, who knows?

Jon

Good point Jon.

Can I just point out to anyone who hasn't read Sean's posts (on the GBF), that the house was previously heated by leccy (only a few storage heaters*). Sean explains that only part of the house was heated, it wasn't on E7 but now is, that the minimum CoP will be 1 so at worst comparable to storage heaters ....... so ...... the higher bills are due to greater heating than before. So not fair to blame the ASHP for increased bills, if the amount of heating isn't comparable.

[Edit: * also a wood burner, but that hasn't changed. M.]

Mart.
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Other-Power
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« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2013, 11:27:52 AM »

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=11458&page=1#Item_0

Quote from: Sean - Green Building Forum
my first forum post, having read the content of this forum for a couple of years I finally have felt the urge to join and contribute to this thread as there are a number of assumptions being made that are somewhat remote from the reality

I was directly involved with the installation mentioned during the BBC segment, and to be blunt they have had the wool pulled over their eyes - here are the facts.

The pump installation was carried out under one of the Gov's energy efficiency schemes (I forget the exact name) the scope of which was limited to the grant funded installation of a high efficiency oil fired boiler or ASHP combined with the separate provision of top up loft insulation and extensive draft proofing. The grant amount allowed, where needed, for the installation of a complete CH system, where none had been present at the time of initial contact.

Other grant schemes were running in parallel which provided EWI and other measures for hard to treat homes, as was the case with this property.

The householder featured was informed at the initial (non technical) assessment for grant eligibility that the house was not currently suitable for being heated by an ASHP, she was also informed (and signed to accept the fact) that an ASHP was currently not the best means of heating her house at the time of the technical assessment.

The grant application was allowed to proceed as the applicant stated that there were plans to dramatically improve the thermal performance of the house such that using an ASHP as the prime source of heat would be suitable, and that the quality of the thermal improvements made would ensure the running costs would be reasonable.

These thermal improvements were apparently to be made by taking advantage of other grants and self funded works. The householder was informed, by a number of people that the running costs would be high until these improvements had been completed, this fact was fully understood and accepted by the applicant.

The lady in question was portrayed in the segment as a frail, poverty stricken soul, whose only source of warmth was dependent on neighbours leaving a few twigs on her doorstep, and one who has been taken advantage of by the grant providers, the assessors and the installers. The reality is that she is a highly informed, very intelligent, very locally vocal lady who manages to keep a house and large garden neat and trim and until recently owned a number of properties.

Mention was made during the segment that it took 11 months for the installation to be completed, blaming the installers incompetence.

Again the reality is somewhat less entertaining.

The entire process, from initial grant application, through the grant eligibility assessments, through the numerous site visits, through the planning process, through the materials procurement and actual installation may well have extended to some length - but the installation of the complete CH system took approximately 5 days, with a few revisits to replace some scratched rads (damaged in transit).

The system consisted of a 6Kw EcoDan, over sized wall mounted rads, with a store, backed up with immersions along with the necessary controls etc - a simple, non complex installation.

The sizing of the unit, and the anticipated end of project thermal performance of the house were independently checked by the local BCO department and others - a process that has resulted in numerous other very content recipients of grant funded ASHP installations in the area.

In hindsight, perhaps the grant should not have been allowed to proceed until the promised improvements had been made to the property, that was outwith our control and the applicant was more than keen to take advantage of the time limited opportunity.

I will leave you all to speculate as to which of the above mentioned works have not been completed, or in fact commenced.



Thanks M,

Supports what I said really, horse to water and all that.

Jon
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