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Author Topic: Are we crazy ?  (Read 12999 times)
billi
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« on: January 24, 2014, 08:07:29 PM »

Just wondering , why i always get involved  into Power and Nuclear discussions  and CO2 emissions

 whistlie ralph genuflect extrahappy ballspin signofcross hysteria Lips Sealed Lips Sealed Lips Sealed Lips Sealed

Any way,   say  20-30 Euro cent per kWh  to calculate with  over the next  15 years ...... gives me a budget of  approx  15000 Euro  , to play with  ( seen over 15 years @ 10 kwh a day consumption )

Some People  try to convince me about Nuclear , Government schemes , solutions future will bring , Co2 problems   ............ again many are getting fooled by authorities , that harvest peoples Profit

Where we stand now is ... half way ,  so take a break and relax  and think , cause you can  do it better  straight away


Please People , if you  are able to finance 15000 Euro , then  invest it into a 10kw PV  with Battery

And  let  Utility companies stand in the rain  with their high CO2 footprint  and without your cash

Billi


So our electricity price is what we pay for , and i am sure we can provide that  more Carbon friendly than the Utility companies ....

What else matters ?
Sure , if they have great Ideas , i will support them , but it looks like the want to drown them ....
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1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
clockmanFR
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« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2014, 08:38:07 PM »

Billi I agree.



Any way,   say  20-30 Euro cent per kWh  to calculate with  over the next  15 years ...... gives me a budget of  approx  15000 Euro  , to play with  ( seen over 15 years @ 10 kwh a day consumption )

Yep that's about right, wonder what Mart will say?
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Everything is possible, just give me TIME.
biff
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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2014, 08:38:37 PM »

Dont worry Billi,
                  It,s getting better (Mamma Cass)/stronger.it is slow to start but once the tide turns in the favour of renewables and folks wake up and want to be educated properly,it will be a done deal.If I can do it anyone can.I just hope that Chris 75 gets his li-po4 bank managment proved right and is not disappointed then everyone will have an oppertunity to store their own energy and be more inclined to save it.
                                                                  Biff
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An unpaid Navitron volunteer,who has been living off-grid,powered by wind and solar,each year better than the last one.
M
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« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2014, 09:32:03 PM »

Billi I agree.

Any way,   say  20-30 Euro cent per kWh  to calculate with  over the next  15 years ...... gives me a budget of  approx  15000 Euro  , to play with  ( seen over 15 years @ 10 kwh a day consumption )

Yep that's about right, wonder what Mart will say?

Hiya CM, what I could say, would fill 10 pages with ponderings. Quick check here, and without our PV, leccy bill around 460, so let's say 600 (allowing for a bit of inflation) so perhaps 9,000 over 15 years. Would struggle for Billi's 10kWp and batts etc, but definitely possible, in theory, can't imagine it not working around the end of the decade. And of course better almost anywhere else in the world, than the UK.

The issue of nukes bugs me, as I don't want them, and don't really want to trade CO2 and pollution, for more pollution, but I'm not sure how 'we' win the argument. No problem saying NO. But the government has to represent the people, and if a majority are scared about future energy, then they need to be pandered too - this isn't the same as appeasement, though it probably looks like it.

I've fought for over two years now on MSE to justify PV, and FiTs. I know subsidies upset some on here, but I reckon PV is 10+ years ahead of where it would have been without subsidy support (mainly from Germany and Italy), and that opens it up, now, to so many more people, especially in sun rich, cash poor countries that were and are massively expanding their leccy generation. So it was and remains still, so important to 'cut them off at the pass' before they invested in something else, such as coal.

Told you I could waffle.

Those countries are more willing to accept limitations on leccy supply, since they are so grateful to have the leccy, whilst we just expect it 24/7. So PV + batts + back up generators are doing wonders. I think it'll go full circle - Europe started the push, America and China (and Japan in blind panic) are now doing the heavy lifting. The poorer countries situated perfectly around the Equator are starting to build momentum, then it'll come back to us, with cheaper panels, and well tested/developed storage. Phew!

But for the UK, I reckon our poorer solar, and less predictable solar, and large winter/summer disparity, make it a bit trickier and further away, timewise. But it'll come, the news is really good, and gets better each year.

Oh, and CM, I have a new plan. My 1.2kWp ESE is on a single story roof, so access is easy for a SolarEdge retro-fit, if I tied them in with some very steep south facing ground mount panels (1 to 1.5kWp) and a 2.2kW SE inverter .......... the ground panels would be shaded SE and SW, but that wouldn't matter in the winter, when our shallow E/W gen falls off a cliff. Just got to try to get it past Wifey and the DNO, not sure which will be trickier? I'll pop that one on the back burner for now.

Mart.

PS There is a third option regarding on-grid off-grid, and that's 'sort of' off grid. Ebico have a no standing charge leccy (and gas) deal, so folks like me, could use them to help with battery sizing. No need to worry about the worst scenario, just use the grid for that bottom 10 or 20% of the time that causes most concern, reducing batt sizing, and DoD. That is, until everyone catches on.  laugh
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Just call me Mart.     Cardiff: 5.58kWp PV - (3.58kWp SE3500 + 2kWp SE2200 WNW)
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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2014, 09:38:11 PM »

Sorry, went off on one there. Alternative answer:

Yes, Billi's definitely onto something.

Mart.
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Just call me Mart.     Cardiff: 5.58kWp PV - (3.58kWp SE3500 + 2kWp SE2200 WNW)
mespilus
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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2014, 09:52:13 PM »

http://www.seas.harvard.edu/news/2014/01/organic-mega-flow-battery-promises-breakthrough-for-renewable-energy
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pdf27
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« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2014, 09:58:09 PM »

15,000 euro (say twelve thousand pounds) per household, 26.4 million households in the UK. That's about 320 billion pounds for the UK as a whole - about 25% of the entire national debt. There are certainly benefits to some people doing it (the batteries may be cheaper than reinforcing the grid, for instance), but it's substantially more expensive than say offshore wind.
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mespilus
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« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2014, 11:04:13 PM »

Well,
each householder has the option to either shovel 12k
in to the Big6 power companies' Directors' Bentleys, cigars & bonusses,
and their shareholders dividends,
or,
invest it in their own power independence.
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pdf27
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« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2014, 11:32:06 PM »

Well,
each householder has the option to either shovel 12k
in to the Big6 power companies' Directors' Bentleys, cigars & bonusses,
and their shareholders dividends,
or,
invest it in their own power independence.
Right now my electricity bill is under 300 per year, and that's on the high side for this forum. If I had 12k cash and used it to pay off my mortgage, that's 300 per year straight away in interest savings. The interest savings would compound, so over the life of my mortgage saving me just over 16,000.
A 10kW system would generate four times my annual consumption, which is about right if I was going off-grid and wanted to ensure I had power year-round (as would be required if we're getting away from lining the pockets of the Big 6). The 300 a year I save would then be used as overpayments on my mortgage in my case, saving me 9,400.

So in my case, going off grid would indeed mean I don't give a big wodge of money to the Big 6* - I can feel very good indeed about depriving them of 9,400. Unfortunately, that joy is rather shortlived when I discover that not only do I have to hand all of it over to the Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation, but that they want another 6,600 on top of that as well!

All in all, that calculation illustrates two things:
  • If you have access to grid electricity, it's generally much cheaper than generating your own.
  • Conservation is much cheaper than generation - our electricity bill is two thirds of the average for our size of house, and would be lower if my wife didn't have the bad habit of turning everything on and forgetting about it.

* I don't anyway as my gas and electricity come from independent suppliers, but let's not worry too much about details
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daserra
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« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2014, 11:35:41 PM »

I will be going off grid , possibly in 2015, depends on work as I don't do credit (or it doesn't do me, I forget). I'm thinking 6kW should do me here and I'm budgeting on around 8k.
I was off-grid for 10 years in the 90's but at 12V/100w life was somewhat meagre.
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marcus
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« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2014, 11:37:20 PM »

certainly makes sense for 'rural' properties, where maintaining the grid to every separate house must be relatively costly for the companies, and those rural properties have more scope of wind & hydro which are less practical in large settlements.

It's already becoming uneconomic to connect an isolated property to the grid.

m

PS. since I got my hydro running in Nov I've used just 0.6 units of grid power  Grin And that's with a 100Ah 24v AGM battery which is rather dinky by most peoples standards, and a 1400VA/980W MSW inverter.
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regen
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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2014, 06:56:13 AM »

The trouble is that the Govt cannot decide what they want to do - save the planet or line the pockets of the multi nationals.  They cannot do both without us the end users incurring year on year above inflation rises in energy costs.  And the best we can come up with to beat the system is use less until it starts to effect our quality of life or use grossly inefficent, resourse hungry batteries which require a degree in determination to keep functioning.

We allready have sufficient storage for all those willing to embrace the renewable but unreliable technologies it is called the National Grid.  Bring in net metering, pay the standing charge to those who maintain and run the grid and most people with a 4kw PV system and reasonable control over usage would make a nett contribution to the grid over a say 3 year period.


Regen

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 300litre thermalstore with 3kw and 1kw immersions
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M
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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2014, 07:56:10 AM »

Well,
each householder has the option to either shovel 12k
in to the Big6 power companies' Directors' Bentleys, cigars & bonusses,
and their shareholders dividends,
or,
invest it in their own power independence.
Right now my electricity bill is under 300 per year, and that's on the high side for this forum. If I had 12k cash and used it to pay off my mortgage, that's 300 per year straight away in interest savings. The interest savings would compound, so over the life of my mortgage saving me just over 16,000.
A 10kW system would generate four times my annual consumption, which is about right if I was going off-grid and wanted to ensure I had power year-round (as would be required if we're getting away from lining the pockets of the Big 6). The 300 a year I save would then be used as overpayments on my mortgage in my case, saving me 9,400.

So in my case, going off grid would indeed mean I don't give a big wodge of money to the Big 6* - I can feel very good indeed about depriving them of 9,400. Unfortunately, that joy is rather shortlived when I discover that not only do I have to hand all of it over to the Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation, but that they want another 6,600 on top of that as well!

All in all, that calculation illustrates two things:
  • If you have access to grid electricity, it's generally much cheaper than generating your own.
  • Conservation is much cheaper than generation - our electricity bill is two thirds of the average for our size of house, and would be lower if my wife didn't have the bad habit of turning everything on and forgetting about it.

* I don't anyway as my gas and electricity come from independent suppliers, but let's not worry too much about details

Hiya pdf. I love these thought exercises, so not really arguing, just, bouncing thoughts.

I get your point about mtg costs, but Billi did say 'those that could finance', a rather general term, but that could also include cash sitting in low interest accounts, at perhaps 1 or 2%. Yes that's a bit low for 12k, but as system prices/costs fall ..... perhaps!

Also need to think of the inflation over the time period, which would push up bills.
Also, that spare leccy could be used to reduce hot water costs (eliminate them in the best 6 to 9 months), reduce gas cooking costs, and contribute to heating cost savings - especially Sept/Oct & Feb to Apr with the use of a small(ish) A/C unit as a heat pump.

I appreciate that this still probably doesn't quite work out yet, but it's a fun thought, and any disparity is only going to reduce, making the situation more possible, if not necessarily possible, as time rolls on.

Side issue, but this sort of ties in with a long standing argument I've been having on MSE. I claimed that domestic PV is more 'economically viable' than farm scale PV. Basically I don't think the costs savings and small efficiency gains of farm PV, outweigh the enormous financial gains of demand side PV (basically grid supply income of 5p, v's demand side savings of 15p (in reality a mix of savings and grid supply)). Sadly, the debate always bogs down, with me being trolled, and claims that I'm saying domestic PV generates leccy cheaper, or more efficiently. [Note, larger scale, demand side, would be even more economically viable.]

Bringing it back, and assuming that 1/3 of our leccy costs are fuel, a 1/3 grid supply, and a 1/3 profit, metering & monitoring (billing), it's a nice thought to 'lose' the second two, even if the first one gets more expensive. And you can't completely disregard the value of 'sticking it to the man'.  whistlie

Mart.
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Just call me Mart.     Cardiff: 5.58kWp PV - (3.58kWp SE3500 + 2kWp SE2200 WNW)
M
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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2014, 08:22:05 AM »

One extra thought. PV is largely modular, so you don't necessarily have to invest all the money at the start, you could grow the system partly through re-investing energy bill savings. That helps to partly address the lost interest side.

Mart.
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Just call me Mart.     Cardiff: 5.58kWp PV - (3.58kWp SE3500 + 2kWp SE2200 WNW)
chasfromnorfolk
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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2014, 08:41:45 AM »

Even at this late stage, a bit of modification to the Green Deal would see bigger uptake of PV et al: I have the clear memory that when first mooted we were to be offered interest-free or token-interest deals secured against equity as a 'lifetime' loan repayable at death or sale. A deal-maker for those on low incomes with little capital. Reintroduce that, and I'd sign up for more 'alternatives' immediately. While available only homeowners with equity slack it would make a difference and go some way to close the gap on GD assessments v. take-up - blamed on the unaffordable interest.
My enlightened Council stepped in and offered an equity based deal at zero % which financed my pellet boiler, so it can be done.

Chas
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