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Author Topic: Are we crazy ?  (Read 13005 times)
billi
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« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2014, 09:20:06 AM »

... not necessary off grid  only , but as an example , i am off grid with a 40 kWh Battery , with only 4 kw PV , so  in summer . there is rarely a day i need my battery during the day and mostly i draw "only " 2-3 kWh out of the battery at night . if i would have a 10 kw PV  whistlie ....

So i would have lots of surplus   to give away (even after my hot water is done ) , day and night every minute or every second , on demand to supply power to the national grid , that struggles to find answers  Kiss

Would be nice to interlink those ideas to one big powerstation , perhaps with CHP gas driven units in winter



but i guess , those ideas will no be wanted  now  , better is to give Nuclear  decades to develop and  being built  whistlie

« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 09:33:12 AM by billi » Logged

1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
pdf27
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« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2014, 09:45:21 AM »

Hiya pdf. I love these thought exercises, so not really arguing, just, bouncing thoughts.

I get your point about mtg costs, but Billi did say 'those that could finance', a rather general term, but that could also include cash sitting in low interest accounts, at perhaps 1 or 2%. Yes that's a bit low for 12k, but as system prices/costs fall ..... perhaps!

Also need to think of the inflation over the time period, which would push up bills.
Also, that spare leccy could be used to reduce hot water costs (eliminate them in the best 6 to 9 months), reduce gas cooking costs, and contribute to heating cost savings - especially Sept/Oct & Feb to Apr with the use of a small(ish) A/C unit as a heat pump.

I appreciate that this still probably doesn't quite work out yet, but it's a fun thought, and any disparity is only going to reduce, making the situation more possible, if not necessarily possible, as time rolls on.

Side issue, but this sort of ties in with a long standing argument I've been having on MSE. I claimed that domestic PV is more 'economically viable' than farm scale PV. Basically I don't think the costs savings and small efficiency gains of farm PV, outweigh the enormous financial gains of demand side PV (basically grid supply income of 5p, v's demand side savings of 15p (in reality a mix of savings and grid supply)). Sadly, the debate always bogs down, with me being trolled, and claims that I'm saying domestic PV generates leccy cheaper, or more efficiently. [Note, larger scale, demand side, would be even more economically viable.]

Bringing it back, and assuming that 1/3 of our leccy costs are fuel, a 1/3 grid supply, and a 1/3 profit, metering & monitoring (billing), it's a nice thought to 'lose' the second two, even if the first one gets more expensive. And you can't completely disregard the value of 'sticking it to the man'.  whistlie

Mart.

My mortgage is at 2.5%, so realistically you need to be earning 1% or less on your money before an investment like this makes sense. It's hard to beat compound interest over a long period of time. Realistically, that means it's only available to older people who own their homes outright and have a stack of capital hanging around. Furthermore, when you look at RoI it's probably only viable when you've already spent quite a bit on demand reduction too.

Realistically, it isn't plausible with current PV/battery costs and energy prices. Both are liable to head in opposite directions, however, making this more plausible in the long run. Overall, however, I think it's a bit of a dead letter - it's very hard to beat the grid as a cheap and convenient battery, and few people have the room to fit bit (10kW) PV systems.

What I think **IS** plausible is the introduction of small (<1kWh) batteries attached to modest (4kW) PV systems. A 1kWh battery isn't much in the current situation, but if you look at time-of-use pricing (see http://www.energy.gov.on.ca/en/smart-meters-and-tou-prices/) which I think is probably going to end up in the UK shortly after smart meters become ubiquitous then it starts to make quite a lot of sense. Most people will use ~10 kWh/day, so such a battery would get fully used up during the peak hours on most days. Call it 250 days a year, and probably 10p/kWh price difference - 25 a year without PV, more like 70/year with PV charging. LiFePO4 batteries with that capacity are down to about 400 and dropping, so it's starting to get marginally commercially viable (and if we get power cuts in future, could probably be justified on those grounds alone).
That's actually the thing about batteries - if you already have a grid connection, you get 80% of the cost benefit for 10% of the battery capacity and cost.

Personally, I think the big win from domestic PV is that those with it become much more aware of their own energy use and the cost of it, and try to cut back accordingly. If I had to take a guess, I'd say the reduction in grid demand from domestic PV is ~50% greater than what farm-scale PV will generate from the same panels
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biff
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« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2014, 10:04:18 AM »

Good post pdf27,
               If you have put your hard earned cash into an off-grid system,you will make every watt usefull and waste nothing.That makes perfect sense because otherwise your system would fail.Being on-grid with a good PV system means that you are going to try and get even with the origional costs as soon as possible and that means you are more liable to invest in every energy saving gadget you can think off.
                                              Biff
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« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2014, 10:28:51 AM »

15,000 euro (say twelve thousand pounds) per household, 26.4 million households in the UK. That's about 320 billion pounds for the UK as a whole

And exceedingly close to some of the clean up estimates for one, single, Japanease power plant...
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« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2014, 11:36:31 AM »

... not necessary off grid  only , but as an example , i am off grid with a 40 kWh Battery , with only 4 kw PV , so  in summer . there is rarely a day i need my battery during the day and mostly i draw "only " 2-3 kWh out of the battery at night . if i would have a 10 kw PV  whistlie ....


I'm sure most households require to use power during the day - refrigeration and washing machines are essentials.

I'm impressed that you only use 2-3 kWh per day - during the summer we consume around 6 -7 kWh per day. In winter time it's closer to 10kWh per day.
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billi
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« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2014, 11:50:32 AM »

Quote
I'm impressed that you only use 2-3 kWh per day - during the summer we consume around 6 -7 kWh per day. In winter time it's closer to 10kWh per day.
At Night  surely more during a whole day
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1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
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« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2014, 11:59:34 AM »

Quote
I'm impressed that you only use 2-3 kWh per day - during the summer we consume around 6 -7 kWh per day. In winter time it's closer to 10kWh per day.
At Night  surely more during a whole day

Ah OK, I misunderstood.
So, with 4kW of PV and 40kWh of battery, how many months of the year can you manage on PV alone? i.e. no generator usage.

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billi
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« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2014, 12:36:10 PM »

PDF
Why only 4 kw for houshold PV installs  and  1 kwh expensive Battery ? Why always think so small ? And let others  think big .... Why not say  10-30  kW PV plus  if the garden,  roof , Wood shed , facade , lawn of a single house  or a conglomerate of houses allows   ? And a bigger battery and a 24 hour supply for selfuse and grid feed  via Hybrid- offgrid inverter  and battery day and night  , and get 92.50/MWh for export  over 35 years like those other   non renewable electricity suppliers   ?  Paired with a CHP like from Lichtblick   http://www.lichtblick.de/microsites/zhkw/index_en.php good for  3-6 housholds for 27000 Euro ( only the CHP) or other CHP ideas
I see no Problem  to compete with  the price  consumers have to pay  for  electricity and heat , and get the extra bonus of  say 92.50/MWh for export  over 35 years  , to supply clean , steady day and night  Electricity  and heat in the neighbourhood
Especially if people  share one installation  , sure its only fiction , but  a very easy fiction to bring into reality fast




« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 01:48:37 PM by billi » Logged

1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
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« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2014, 01:50:40 PM »

Quote
I'm impressed that you only use 2-3 kWh per day - during the summer we consume around 6 -7 kWh per day. In winter time it's closer to 10kWh per day.
At Night  surely more during a whole day

Ah OK, I misunderstood.
So, with 4kW of PV and 40kWh of battery, how many months of the year can you manage on PV alone? i.e. no generator usage.


  Approx 10 month of the year
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« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2014, 02:08:28 PM »

I've seen 10kw of PV generating less than 100w at midday  whistlie
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oliver90owner
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« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2014, 02:24:40 PM »

Less than that in the arctic circle, I daresay! 

Sometimes extremes need to be considered; sometimes averages over a day or two is near enough.

RAB
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Tiff
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« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2014, 04:37:45 PM »

Dont worry Billi,
                  It,s getting better (Mamma Cass)/stronger.it is slow to start but once the tide turns in the favour of renewables and folks wake up and want to be educated properly,it will be a done deal.If I can do it anyone can.I just hope that Chris 75 gets his li-po4 bank managment proved right and is not disappointed then everyone will have an oppertunity to store their own energy and be more inclined to save it.
                                                                  Biff

Has anyone heard from Chris 75 - would be good to get an update on his system.
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« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2014, 05:23:03 PM »

One slight problem with 10kW of PV is where am I going to put it?   Huh   My roof is full with only 2kW as I have a small house and that's got shading from trees in the winter.

Just remember that not everyone has acres of land to play with, particularly if they live in the more crowded parts of the UK.
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clockmanFR
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« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2014, 05:42:12 PM »

Billi's 10kW of PV is about right.

I have 5kW (good quality Monos) on trackers and 2kW on a static wall mount, but even so in gloomy winter days I am only getting, average, about 2.4kW a day in ambient light.

I have talked to Mrs CM and she agrees while PV is cheapish, well it is against 10 years ago, and cheaper, watt for generated watt, than me putting more Hugh Piggott designed 3.7m diameter Wind Turbines, Then we will add another 5kW of PV, probably some Ground mounted and some on more trackers, but the PV must be out of sheep range height.

Biff has mentioned this and I concur, I am loosing about a third of my energy created when charging my 65kWh batteries. I have no actual data yet, but battery loss must be considered.
 
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Everything is possible, just give me TIME.
billi
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« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2014, 06:25:44 PM »

I've seen 10kw of PV generating less than 100w at midday  whistlie
and ?

I have seen powerstations to be shut down for maintenance .... and  ?


My point is  . that with PV , CHP and Battery  (unfortunately  my style of battery will not have enough resources of lead worldwide)  we could built a network  and Buffer the Grid

So there are 2 prices to consider  .... one is the "Market" price  and the other the actual price on our bill


Anyway , i guess  many people like to be told , what to do  , thats why  i guess  people  give  right of way to new Nuclear Ideas and try to freeze  renewable ideas and stigmatise them as an intermittent  solution

Classic one  , vote for a 35 year   contract  Roll Eyes , and hope  its  fine    Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: January 25, 2014, 06:47:47 PM by billi » Logged

1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
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