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Author Topic: An off-grid expeience  (Read 6478 times)
camillitech
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« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2014, 06:18:36 AM »

Be very interested to here about your sequential dumps and frequency shifting relays. I'm planning the exact same system for my new 'off grid' house based on eight experience with my current one.


A work in progress and I think best use of what I've got rather than what I would like but currently:
5x Din rail mounted relays. All with 25a contactors.
Three in the outbuilding.
One Econnect type DILC controlling 1kW immersion half way up the main DHW tank (boss position reflects initial expectation of limited dump potential). This is set around 50.4 hz and has a random delay timer.
Two Eltime frequency protection relays with delay timer function set to 0. First set at around 50.6 hz and controlling a 1kW immersion half way up the heat store (again boss position reflects initial expectation of limited dump potential), second around 50.8 hz controlling 3kW immersion in the bottom of the feeder DHW tank (installed for increased dump potential).
Two in house
Eltime relays with timer set at minimum (about 2 sec), one at about 50.12 hz and one at about 50.14 hz. Both connected directly to several sockets on isolated sections of old house ring. Usually have a 1kW convector on the first and a 3kW oil radiator on the second.
2x Econnect plug type DILCs with random delay timers and set to 50.4 and 50.8 hz. Usually have these connected to 1 & 0.7kW oil radiators and just move them wherever we want some extra or pre-heating.
All the above settings are from memory I've mislaid the Econnect dip switch settings list and the Eltime pots settings are not very precise and required two people and much semaphoring to set!
Immersion thermostat settings are near max in the heat store which is in practice around 85c @ 3.5 bar at the top of the tank on trip. Note that the layering system of the tank is ineffective if there is no forced circulation. 56c in the DHWs.
Appreciate that some of this might seem counter-intuitive and it only the latest of many different configurations. It has worked very well this last autumn/winter keeps the PV on, turbine loaded and puts the heat pretty much where we want it. Anyone who has watched the frequency shift of a SI inverter with large wind input might have the best insight into the plan.
I intend to replace the heat store immersion with a 2kW when the weather warms up.
It is true the relays aren't cheap but there are plenty available apart from Eltime ABB, Hobut etc all have their own version. I believe the Amber control is the newer version from the same manufacturer as my Econnect and made specifically for renewable industry but it does the same job as a standard frequency protection relay.
PLC control (with a pwm output) is the way to go if you can.

Many thanks for that, it was just what I was looking for, stupidly I hadn't actually considered using them on dedicated sockets where you could vary the appliance  Roll Eyes

Cheers, Paul
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'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
biff
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« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2014, 10:21:54 AM »

Good morning Heatherhopper,
                          Well at least you got a full refund from Bergey which was fair enough.But if you could have heard it 1.5miles away then it must have been serious noise. You will get rogues in every car/appliance.Sounds as though it was shaking itself apart. But at least you came out of it at the right end
#                                                                                                         Biff
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Ted
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« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2014, 10:25:57 AM »

Is the Bergey just down the road also on an adapted Proven tower?
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« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2014, 10:52:44 AM »

"Taken down and blade assembly castle nut found loose but with split pin in place (this assembly was complete as delivered)."

Hay Paul, looks like dodgy chinky Fake bearings again.


Now where is my file.  onpatrol
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camillitech
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« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2014, 01:27:38 PM »

"Taken down and blade assembly castle nut found loose but with split pin in place (this assembly was complete as delivered)."

Hay Paul, looks like dodgy chinky Fake bearings again.


Now where is my file.  onpatrol

This turbine is the one that YZ copied CM, Bergey should have consulted Biff, he'd have lopped 100mm off the blades and fixed it  hysteria
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biff
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« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2014, 01:32:34 PM »

  Such a difference in opinion,
                          I am no engineer,nor would I pretend to pass myself off as one,Yet I hear this business about dud Chinese bearings and it is truly frightening stuff. So I am well warned and every time I take down my Yang-Shen,I check for play and pump them full of nice red grease.Each time I do this,the results are the same,The massive main bearings are as tight as the day they were installed and the yaws are just the same. Over the years I have been in contact with at least a dozen folks who have these same lumps and they might have cast blades or blown controllers or suffered days of massive overspeed but the bearings are just as good as new.
   Then we have members who know how terrible these Chinese bearings are and before they will errect their new turbine,they whip out the evil Chinese ones and install the real deal,specially measured to be exactly exact,or otherwise known as "Spot On",they lovingly assemble the baby and throw a lick of midnight white on it but the news is not good,China and Japan can hardly tolerate each other at the moment and the Chinese lump rejects the imperial bearing committing Hari-kari and frying itself to death,
   I just fire the thing up the pole and hope for the best. I got the best.
                                                                                Biff
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biff
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« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2014, 01:36:56 PM »

Unless Bergey has been about since 1992,
                                  Then its possible that things might be the other way around. But I could be wrong,I have been wrong before.The present day casings might be a little different but the innards remain virtually the same with the same bearings.
                                                         Biff
      The original hubs came in two varieties,One was a very heavy but very well made  12mm steel sock type hub,which allowed the same blade to slide down into it in a bed of mastic and then clamped down into place while the other was the infamous cheap cast iron nightmare hub.The present day hub takes the same blades but 2kw hub is 12mm steel cut back to make it as light as possible.
    The blades and hubs must be made by an independent company who supply different wind turbine companies with their props.This would also explain why very often the blades are much too big with those exciting results you get from over speeding.
                                                       Biff
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camillitech
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« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2014, 05:12:24 PM »

Unless Bergey has been about since 1992,
                                  Then its possible that things might be the other way around. But I could be wrong,I have been wrong before.The present day casings might be a little different but the innards remain virtually the same with the same bearings.
                                                         Biff
     

A good twenty years before Biff, 1970 in Oklahoma I think, that's why I'd never have one or its clones. The rarefied dry air of the US mid west is not the same as the damp, dense salt laden squalls that come over the Atlantic and off the Cuillins.

Cheers, Paul
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http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
billi
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« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2014, 06:05:38 PM »

Unless Bergey has been about since 1992,
                                  Then its possible that things might be the other way around. But I could be wrong,I have been wrong before.The present day casings might be a little different but the innards remain virtually the same with the same bearings.
                                                         Biff
     

A good twenty years before Biff, 1970 in Oklahoma I think, that's why I'd never have one or its clones. The rarefied dry air of the US mid west is not the same as the damp, dense salt laden squalls that come over the Atlantic and off the Cuillins.

Cheers, Paul

Probably , thats why  , i trust in Proven PV   whistlie
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camillitech
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« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2014, 07:02:45 PM »

Unless Bergey has been about since 1992,
                                  Then its possible that things might be the other way around. But I could be wrong,I have been wrong before.The present day casings might be a little different but the innards remain virtually the same with the same bearings.
                                                         Biff
     

A good twenty years before Biff, 1970 in Oklahoma I think, that's why I'd never have one or its clones. The rarefied dry air of the US mid west is not the same as the damp, dense salt laden squalls that come over the Atlantic and off the Cuillins.

Cheers, Paul

Probably , thats why  , i trust in Proven PV   whistlie

At today's prices, anyone would be a fool not to  genuflect
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'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
heatherhopper
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« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2014, 07:40:27 PM »

Is the Bergey just down the road also on an adapted Proven tower?

No - a "custom" 6m pole. It also has slightly different topography and I suspect slightly kinder wind conditions. Biggest difference though is that it uses a Xantrex inverter and has a large DC heater as a dump load. Ours had the chinese made controller with no direct dump load (optional but not obligatory according to Bergey). I suspect the controller either developed an early fault or could not handle the high outputs without an attached dump load - Bergey did not consider these as possibilities. Note that it was always ok at wind speeds below around 25 mph.The other possibility is that our wind conditions were beyond the Bergey's prairie pedigree - we have quite a bit of natural turbulence along with very high winds. Output was often 20+ kW in a day.
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camillitech
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« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2014, 08:03:40 PM »

Is the Bergey just down the road also on an adapted Proven tower?

No - a "custom" 6m pole. It also has slightly different topography and I suspect slightly kinder wind conditions. Biggest difference though is that it uses a Xantrex inverter and has a large DC heater as a dump load. Ours had the chinese made controller with no direct dump load (optional but not obligatory according to Bergey). I suspect the controller either developed an early fault or could not handle the high outputs without an attached dump load - Bergey did not consider these as possibilities. Note that it was always ok at wind speeds below around 25 mph.The other possibility is that our wind conditions were beyond the Bergey's prairie pedigree - we have quite a bit of natural turbulence along with very high winds. Output was often 20+ kW in a day.

Biff seemed 'to get the hump' H, but I was actually being quite serious and praising his ingenuity. His turbine is a copy of yours, suffered from the same overspeeding and the need of constant reliable dump loading. His answer, after years of taking the thing down every time the wind blew was to lower it. Now personally I couldn't be fecked with that but he lopped a few inches off the blades and 'hey presto', problem sorted  genuflect Me I foolishly put a 200w Yangzhou Shenzhou up http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,20721.0.html did not listen to his expert advice and fecked it http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,21301.0.html

I'll stick with my Proven's thanks.
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'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
biff
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« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2014, 12:09:36 AM »

Hump,? me,?
                   Never!, facepalm. I just do not have it in me. I am a total saint.My experiences with the Yang-Shens over speeding were some times quite scary and I was lucky to get away with it.
    But I got to learn that the large blades could force the 2kw to pump our over 3kw. Max rpm was supposed to be 400rpm but every time a force 8 came along those blades went clean out of sight for
  hours on end.We were battered here with gales about 3 years ago,non stop for about 5 weeks,The turbine got that hot that the red grease began to run out the hole in the bottom of the lump,leaving big black streaks along the casing.So the first calm day that came along,I lowered it and found that every thing was fine. I gave the bearings another big shot of the red grease and sent it back up. It was a few months after that,that the lightening was dancing along the tail during a freak ice shower.You could not call it hailstones because they were lumps of ice which tore the leading edges of the blades as well, That same night the Symettra got knocked out and the big blue socket on the geni got blown. But, I still had a spare Diesel Chinese geni, hysteria
  I got to learn by hands on,exactly what kind of savage abuse these lumps could take and I kid you not,I have never had to change a bearing yet.Even my original 450watt x 12 volt (the one I gave to a friend) is still running on top of the bluestacks since before 2007,still with its original parts and bearings.
         No matter how good your system is,there are certain natural events that can leave them useless and  make a mockery of our efforts.
                                                                                Biff
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heatherhopper
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« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2014, 11:44:56 AM »

I guess some of Biff's experiences/observations must have applied to our Bergey , certainly we had similar behaviour and our version was certainly manufactured somewhere other than the USA. Note that we did fit the shorter blade set (something like 3" shorter if I remember right) - made no difference at all. I still favour the controller (or absence of a direct dump load) as being at fault. When we finally laid the Bergey to rest the slip assembly was in poor nick but there were no other faults evident - 7.5V DC was produced out of the rectifier by rotating by hand. Obviously with the unit under warranty investigations were limited. As it happens it was probably a stroke of incredible good fortune to lose the Bergey, we replaced it with the 6kW in a deal that is barely believable and are only very slightly out of pocket with a much better beast. Pictures of deceased below with one of it in better days.







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« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2014, 02:39:41 PM »

Thanks for sharing the pictures H,

I love looking at wind turnips. Don't like the rectification in the head though, all to save a few pence on an extra slip ring  wackoold

Cheers, Paul
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http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
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