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Author Topic: A foul wind a blowin  (Read 302873 times)
biff
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« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2014, 12:25:27 AM »

Hi Roger,
         Been thinking about this all evening and to be perfectly honest it is something which I should have sorted ages ago. Under normal conditions and even in a gale blowing from any other direction than from the north west,The tower lowering process is only a 2 minute job. The winch was a 12,000lb job and well able to take all the weight that I could put on the safety rope but it was the lack of proper weight that allowed the lowering to go wrong.If it had been loaded on the safety rope,say 200kgs in incriments of 5 x40kgs, hooked on just before the lowering process had begun and stored handy hearby,I would not be forking out for the price of another winch and replacing a set of blades.
  So I have no one to blame but myself,simple neglect. I had the answer but did not follow it through.Even If I had of had 100kgs on the safety that last time,It would not have got back up again. I could barely believe my eyes when I saw it stalling and refusing to go down and then slowly starting to rise,The turbine had braked as well, and once it started backing up it just picked up speed right to the top.
    She and I discussed a simple tilting tower with four 10ft legs,(The ground is soft) but there would also have to be guys as well. The guys absorb a lot of shock, vibration and noise but at the end of the day,what we have got already is very good,it is just that it was not being used correctly.
      We have a right old force 8+ at the moment and tomorrow at dinnertime it is supposed to get very rough.
  I wish everyone  safe and well.
                                            Biff
 
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baker
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« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2014, 12:52:37 AM »

biff
sorry to hear about the turbine   
an other notch on your belt,
I got away, ok so far so good /bar the inverter charger  .not charging
baker
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supremetwo
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« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2014, 01:01:40 AM »

Hi, Biff

Is the issue of needing to be lowered because you have modified the design to maximise efficient production in lighter winds?

Or are all small turbines incapable of withstanding a decent storm?
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camillitech
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« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2014, 06:30:28 AM »


Or are all small turbines incapable of withstanding a decent storm?

Proven number 1, 2.5kW been belting out 40amps for two days now and never been lowered due to weather in 9 years. My other Proven suffered minor damage once whilst it was lowered with the brake off, wind caught it and the blades hit a tree stump  banghead I was most dischuffed, it appears some turbines are safer flying through storms than 'safely lowered'.
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'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
biff
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« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2014, 09:11:04 AM »

Good morning all,
              Hi Supremetwo. The answer to your question is almost in Paul,s last post. His Proven is rated at 2.5 but it takes a force 8 to get it above 2kw,
  Now our own,Chinese, Yang-Shen was (with its original 2kw low wind speed blades) capable of a steady 2kw in a force 4 to 5 and would deliver enough to keep the house running in a force 3. However  above force 8 it would start overspeeding and I have on many occasions seen it producing over 3kw.
      So In the name of safety and the quiet untroubled life,I removed the big 2kw blades and fitted the shorter smaller 1kw blades. This was very good move and brought excellent results. The low wind speed start-up was not affected in the least but the top end power band was reduced to somewhere around 1.6kw. We did not mind this in the least as long as it kept the bank full. The controllers had a much easier life and the stator had less leverage exerted on it during braking.
 The difference between Paul,s Proven and our Yang_Shen is that in normal kind of weather,Our baby is churning away making hay while Paul,s is sitting looking at him. We do not have to start up or geni, perhaps the very very odd time but our savings on diesel would far outweight the cost of the new winch and blades, A 100 ltrs of diesel will last us well over a year.
  But there is a penalty for such efficiency, You cannot have it every way. The top end storms exact terrible abuse on them, They heat up during overspeed and even though they have massive big bearings and are well made,they are not designed for such extreme weather. So I devised a good method of lowering our turbine before anything bigger than a force 8 It has worked well most times but yesterday circumstances worked against me and I went at it half cocked and got beat.
   So Next time,? Well Roger who loves wind turbines as much as me and has lots of Yang-Shen experience,suggested two winches, One to pull it down and one to let it down gently. I still think the answer is more simple. I still believe that the weight on the Safety rope just needs to be added before lowering but as to how I can do that,,I still have not worked it out.
       You would almost think that a rope from the top of the tower,fed through a pully on the ground where the guys are anchored opposite the winching tree and then brought straight back to where I control the joystick for the winch at the base of the tree would be enough,being worked by hand as the tower was being lowered but now I know that is a non runner. The way the wind caught the turbine when it was down past the 45% mark and flung it straight back up with a 50kg weight on the centre of the safety rope,means nothing is going to be hand held apart from a remote control Grin.
   The turbine has to be lowered in such a way that it cannot get loose and get blown back up. That is the way forward. As for leaving it up in a force 10 or 11. I think not Grin. I love it too much to stand by and watch it getting thrashed in a storm. What is the use in doing that.? We have a bank that can carry us for 48 hours easily and lowering the turbine adds years to it life. It still performs while it is lowered but the wind cannot exert the same force on it.. I may be wrong but lowering the turbine is something that I believe in and we know that most damage to small wind turbines is done during storms because of overspeed.
             Biff
 
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Billy
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« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2014, 09:23:34 AM »

Sorry Biff. Sad

It would seem many makers say their machines are capable of surviving 90+mph winds but suggest when you know a blow is coming then best lower or at least tether.  I do believe there was/is a future energy on a ship in the Antarctic.  I wonder how that got on long term?

The Navitron Turnip 300 made it through last night and we hit 36knots in one gust, spent most of the night furled it seemed.  Lull now before the next bit it would seem.

I remember well one dark and stormy night struggling to lower the turbine.  It was a houghley, try as I might I just couldn't get it to come down against power of the wind, I gave it some slack and went to give it a push from behind and nearly garrotted myself.  I appeared that Mrs B had strung a washing line up between the tower and a mast.  In the dark I hadn't seen it and went into auto procedure for the lowering.....   facepalm
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camillitech
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« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2014, 09:36:29 AM »

2kw around a force 5 Biff and starts generating in a force 2,



and I have no need to listen to the weather forecast also I can leave home for three months in the winter knowing my wife will have power.
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'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
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« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2014, 09:41:38 AM »

My Hugh Piggot's just carry on.  extrahappy

They were designed and proved in Scotland.  extrahappy

If I do need to stop them, I just short out the 3 phase windings, and that stops them, then they just very very slowly revolve.

So to be honest, I am dismayed at the Chinese stuff not really being fit for purpose.

Yes biff I have some of these Chinese bits, but as I said I will Hugh Piggott'fy them, (head/turnip geometry and tail furling geometry) and I will fit a offset arm to the turnip head that allows the tail to be gathered up from a simple pulley arrangement on the ground and pull the blades out of the wind, then the coils can be shorted out safely.
 
I have noted that these Chinese turnip heads have different windings, so that when the coils are shorted out, the resistance to rotate is not as good as the HP's, and hence my design arrangement for the offset arm to pull the tail around.

As 'Skipper' say's "Wave and Smile Boy's, Wave and Smile".  Grin
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biff
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« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2014, 10:40:25 AM »

 hysteria hysteria,
  Look if its any comfort to ya all,
                            I am stuck with this turbine. Maybe I think that by praising away at it,it will shine for me but then again,It has been working really well and delivering the goods,
  I could not build a Hugh Piggott W/T if I tried nor would I invest in a Proven after having listened to my neighbours who had spent a ransom buying Provens only to have them sitting there for 6 months waiting for some small part.Those were 2.5 provens not the 35 ones and of course you all know the story of the last Provens.. Lucky me that I had nothing to do with those.!!
  Am I right in saying that Bergey did not even fit slip rings on his early turbines,? Yang-Shen fitted double slip rings on their 2008 2kw turbines.
    Yang-Shen suffered serious overspeed problems that was easily cured by smaller blades and a lighter tail.  We all know that now but it has taken time to discover that. I am sure that Paul,s Proven needed slight adjustment before it ran troublefree.
  I am very happy with what I have and the blame for its failure is 100% my own. None of the Hugh Piggott Or Proven turbines can drop from 20ft onto the bog and come away unscathed either. hysteria
                                                                        Biff
« Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 11:00:02 AM by biff » Logged

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biff
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« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2014, 11:09:21 AM »

Crikey Paul,
               I have just checked the weather map and there is a red patch over Raasay, I kid you not,it is set to peak about 3 or 4 o clock this afternoon.
  We are getting it bad at the moment but all the red is about 20 mile off our coast,about 25 mile from us.
   Yours, is set top blow right through till Thursday,
                                                       Biff
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« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2014, 11:55:29 AM »

Crikey Paul,
               I have just checked the weather map and there is a red patch over Raasay, I kid you not,it is set to peak about 3 or 4 o clock this afternoon.
  We are getting it bad at the moment but all the red is about 20 mile off our coast,about 25 mile from us.
   Yours, is set top blow right through till Thursday,
                                                       Biff

Aye Biff, just in for a cuppa and it's freshening all the time, worst of it is the lightening we've had for three days now, it's been playing havoc with my RCD's. Twice now we've lost power in the early hours which is a bit of a pain as most of my dumps are AC. I should really turn off one of my hydro turbines tonight so if it does happen again at least I don't do yet another unscheduled EQ  Grin
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« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2014, 03:23:04 PM »

Merde, Scheisse   ...... sorry to hear Biff

But i agree , some of those China turbines   seem to be  OK   , i leave mine running tonite , will be about 24 m/s ,  will see ..... again  facepalm
I can turn her out of the wind  by catching the tail with a long PVC tube and a hook  and  break generator  by shortening  the  wires

are Proven still big sellers ? at those costs ?   ,  sad to see , that we  have not much small windturbines   at a lower price available


Billi


PS:   force  What ??  ... that is Latin to me ! Is it not possible to agree on m/s or  similar   i accept miles es well  whistlie
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supremetwo
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« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2014, 03:47:44 PM »

Quote
PS:   force  What ??  ... that is Latin to me ! Is it not possible to agree on m/s or  similar   i accept miles es well  whistlie

Here you are - m/sec

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/guide/weather/marine/beaufort-scale
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biff
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« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2014, 05:17:02 PM »

Hi Billi,
        You are safe enough,,Mod don,t shoot mod, Grin.
       + I have a terrible aim. Most turbines have a piece of paper that states that they can survive winds of 100mph. It means nothing,probably means if they are safely tucked away in their box.I think the Beaufort scale of "force8" is just under 40mph.
                                                Biff
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« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2014, 05:48:23 PM »

 surrender so sorry to hear about your turbine Biff.  A bit delayed comment due to no internet.
I know that this setback won't stop you.
My chinky job has stayed aloft in a 90 mph blast maybe I just got lucky.
It was way to windy to lower it safely the wind just kept getting worse. Forecast was for max winds of 40mph.  whistlie It survived intact.
Before going away this week I just breaked it and left it aloft, in the manner CM describes.
Not having CM's skills nor enough dosh for a proven my Chinese job was about the only option.
To date OK it has been a lot of fun and the occasional need for a change of under wear!
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