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Author Topic: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.  (Read 78793 times)
offthegridandy
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« Reply #210 on: January 10, 2017, 09:25:59 AM »

Hi Tinburn and all.

yes there are guys on 7 of the 8 cardinal points.  Couldn't get a ground fixing at point nos 8 but that is the SW corner where we are sheltered by the hill.  In theory the 4 main NSEW points would do the job on there own.  I've also got 3 guys coming of from a 1/3rd of the way down the tower.

It's been blowing all night with around 15Amps per hr average and the batts are reading about 24.3V and the PV should start to cut in in the next half hour.

Paul at this elevation (1000ft) I doubt that sea water is a worry but thanks for the info I'll keep it mind.  Whens the concrete going in?

On the question of "don't do this at home".  I was trained and worked for the CEGB in the 70's as a rigger so have some experience of scaffolding and rigging but the muscles did ache after climbing the tower a few times.  Hopefully that will become only an annual event.
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« Reply #211 on: January 11, 2017, 06:47:29 AM »

Hi Andy,

just back at work now for a fortnight, so it won't be for a while, was hoping to get it poured on Monday but got tied up with other stuff. You'll need a pretty high tide to be worried about salt then hey  Grin Feared of going outside here this morning, wind has averaged 50MPH since midnight and gusted to 100MPH,  Shocked highest I've seen here  fingers crossed!

Cheers, Paul
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http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
offthegridandy
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« Reply #212 on: January 11, 2017, 04:44:47 PM »

Cheers Paul, I hope you've got every thing nailed down tight.  100mph gusts, you'd be lucky to still be standing.
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8 KVA Lister TS2 Startamatic Genny
24 Volt 1000amp battery bank
Outback VFX3024
4.6 Kw PV array ground mounted
Outback Flexmax 80
2 X Flexmax 30 PV CC
2.5 Kw WT H Piggot design 4.5 Mtr Dia AC coupled
12 Mtr free standing Tower.
u/floor heating from oil boiler cross linked to 12 K wood stove
offthegridandy
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« Reply #213 on: February 23, 2017, 05:20:51 PM »

With an early warning from Biff on the progress of Doris I was out last night and switched the turbine to park, the switch is configured to short out all 3 phases of the alternator.

This morning by lunch time I think we must have been getting the full force and the turbine was running fast in spite of the brake.  The HP furling was working a treat though.  One can clearly see the blades turn away from the wind and slow to a halt. Then the tail swings back, the rotor speeds up and then the furling cycle starts again.

I'm not too concerned about the turbine as it seems to take everything that's thrown at it. However I'm going to inspect the turbine closely when Doris has done her thing as I think the hub bearing needs attention.  Plus the wind today has bent the mast at the top of the tower.

The top of the tower is a flat plate 6mm steel with 3 legs of 48mm steel tube which drop down inside the 3 tower legs. Welded to the top of the plate is 300mm long 48mm steel tube, sleeved over it is 68mm heavy gauge steel tube (1.5 mtr long) and it is this tube which provides for the yaw bearing.  As can be seen in the piccy the tube has bent in this gale.  I presume its the 48mm tube has bent where it is attached to the flat top plate. I'd hate to see what this would be like if the full 1.5mtrs was only 48mm dia as is the "norm" with guyed towers.






So question please chaps.  Have I got my wiring in the brake switch wrong? Or is it simply that the wind speed ( up to 80MPH) is such that the force can over come the resistance of the 3 sets of coils.

In these circumstances should I provide some mechanical device in the design, so that having stopped the blades with the brake, the blades could be tethered to stop any rotation.

Question may appear naive but I've never had to park the blades in weather before. 

2nd question. If I hadn't applied the park switch before the storm started what would likely happen if I applied it when the WT is spinning fast.

The good news is all the ground mount PV is securely in place and banging in some amps this PM.


All thoughts welcome.

Cheers

Andy

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u/floor heating from oil boiler cross linked to 12 K wood stove
biff
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« Reply #214 on: February 23, 2017, 05:59:19 PM »

Hi Andy,
    The question is an easy one, If the blades are big enough and the leverage on the stator too great, The wind can overcome the shorting out. but worse still, the heat starts to build up in the windings.
 In your case, Hugh,s furling design is a life saver. looking at that bent 48mm shaft, I would say you had a serious bit of wind indeed.
            Biff
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agrarian
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« Reply #215 on: February 23, 2017, 06:10:48 PM »

Hello Andy,

A 3 metre diameter rotor seems a bit big for a 750 watt alternator and is perhaps the reason why the rotor speeds up again once the tail unfurls even though the phases are shorted out. My turbines are rated at 2KW with 3 metre rotors and can generate even more if allowed to  in winds the like of Doris. Applying a short circuit when the turbine is at full chat is a risky thing to do as the instantaneous current could burn out the windings, brushes, rectifier etc especially if the short circuit fails to stall the blades. I use a braking load of 3 KW which is sufficient to stop the turbine safely without damage.

Ag
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« Reply #216 on: February 23, 2017, 07:20:47 PM »

Hi Biff, Ag.  I'm running this unit with 2.4 Mtr dia blades so everything is as per Hughes design.  I guess it's just the extreme wind speed today. As I say the actual furling is a treat to watch in action.  A possible tweak would be to introduce some friction into the tail boom swivel so it was slower to respond after a gust. 

What I've been watching today was a constant on/off effect.  As the wind gust died down the tail immediately starts to unfurl, swinging away then getting pushed straight back around on the next gust. The turbine is of course yawing about at the same time. Alternatively I could make the tail a bit longer so it furled a bit earlier and stayed furled longer, that might be it.

The bend in the mast top is impressive though.  I had asked Father Christmas for a annenometwind thingy as a present but no show on that one so no actual data from here but I heard on the radio of a gust recorded locally at about 90Mph. 

Ag the alternator from memory is rated at 750W with a 1000W peak, certainly the unit furls completely when I see 40amps at the rectifier using a clamp meter.

Can I ask how you apply the 3Kw braking load?

Cheers
Andy
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8 KVA Lister TS2 Startamatic Genny
24 Volt 1000amp battery bank
Outback VFX3024
4.6 Kw PV array ground mounted
Outback Flexmax 80
2 X Flexmax 30 PV CC
2.5 Kw WT H Piggot design 4.5 Mtr Dia AC coupled
12 Mtr free standing Tower.
u/floor heating from oil boiler cross linked to 12 K wood stove
agrarian
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« Reply #217 on: February 23, 2017, 07:36:20 PM »

Hello Andy,

I use a "braking load" of 1KW per phase on the ac output of both turbines, these are applied by voltage controlled relays switching SSRs or switching the SSRs manually. This allows the turbines to be braked automatically at a battery voltage of 140 volts or stopped manually by throwing a switch. This arrangement brings the turbines to a stop without the application of a short circuit which could damage the stators. The solar panels are switched off in the same way at a battery voltage of 138 volts. Battery voltage below 138 volts is controlled by the switching in or out of load groups in similar fashion but applied to the battery side of the rectifiers in the normal way. I don't use an off the shelf controller as none so far have been up to the job under stressful conditions.

Ag

P. S. SSR...... Solid State Relay
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« Reply #218 on: February 23, 2017, 07:56:09 PM »

Andy,

Voltage controlled relay.







Ag
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« Reply #219 on: February 23, 2017, 08:33:33 PM »

Andy,

Search "voltage controlled relay" in "Wind Turbines and associated systems" on here for more details.

Ag
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« Reply #220 on: February 23, 2017, 08:43:08 PM »

Thanks Ag, I get the idea thank you. I think one of the bits of kit I brought back from Cornwall has a similar function.  I'll dig it out and study the hand book.

Cheers,

Andy
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8 KVA Lister TS2 Startamatic Genny
24 Volt 1000amp battery bank
Outback VFX3024
4.6 Kw PV array ground mounted
Outback Flexmax 80
2 X Flexmax 30 PV CC
2.5 Kw WT H Piggot design 4.5 Mtr Dia AC coupled
12 Mtr free standing Tower.
u/floor heating from oil boiler cross linked to 12 K wood stove
biff
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« Reply #221 on: February 23, 2017, 08:45:25 PM »

Hi Ag and Andy,
             Andy, I went a slightly different route to AG, We both have the same 2 kw turbines, Ag Modified the tail and the dump loads, I used a slightly lighter tail and smaller 1lw blades.
 The smaller blades means that out turbine will never clock 3kw+ again but that is fine with us. Instead, it has become a different machine entirely. It,s top whack now is around 1.5kw in a force 8 or 9.
 It has been very well tested. The low wind start up has not been affected which was a bit of a surprise.
 I would say that Ag,s method would have much superior dump load technology. He kept the big blades and designed a tail that would furl in time, (sent me a video of the same) So Ag would be clocking the true 2kw while I make do with the 1kw+, I am happy with what we have and it works well along with our 3.8 of PV.
 We get quite a bit of turbulence here as well. The small blades cope better, put less pressure on the braking system, easier on the bearings and furling gear.
  Hugh,s alt desigh has a much wider diameter than our Y/S have, they can cope with a lot of blade leverage but still there is a limit, Those big blades on a 1kw max alt, push the absolute limits on your exposed site. If you want long livity and reliability, it would be better to reduce the blade span and do with a bit less top output.
  One more thing, I found that sometimes we got 2 wind coming in from different directions. The big blades would brake and furl only to be caught half way on the return. It was never a pleasant sight. the whole caboodle would take a drunken lurch. This is the main reason that I stuck with the smaller blades. The whole operation became very refined and non stressful. A totally different ballgame.
       I hope this helps Andy,
                          Biff
  
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offthegridandy
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« Reply #222 on: February 23, 2017, 08:48:20 PM »

Thanks Biff I'll think on.

Andy
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24 Volt 1000amp battery bank
Outback VFX3024
4.6 Kw PV array ground mounted
Outback Flexmax 80
2 X Flexmax 30 PV CC
2.5 Kw WT H Piggot design 4.5 Mtr Dia AC coupled
12 Mtr free standing Tower.
u/floor heating from oil boiler cross linked to 12 K wood stove
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« Reply #223 on: February 23, 2017, 11:30:37 PM »

There is an awful lot of leverage on that 6mm plate.

Couple of thoughts, increase to 10mm 12mm etc plate / extend the 48mm tube through the flat plate and anchor lower down or have the 68mm tube inside another tube that is gusseted to the flat plate.
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offthegridandy
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« Reply #224 on: March 19, 2017, 11:05:11 AM »

A day or 2 before the strong winds of a week or so ago I thought I could hear a noise from the WT, a muted rumbling.  So I decided to park her ladyship before the gale.  As shown before we took a real pasting and the lump has to come down to the ground.  I did repack the main shaft bearing with grease last time she was down but I guess Mr Wear and tear has been in.

So a friend came buy a dropped of his, not in the first flush of youth cherry picker.  With the use of this I could dismantle the turbine and lower down piece meal and reduce the side forces on the mast when lowering.

The yellow peril is in good working orderish although there is some slack in all the gear, so when fully extended the cage at the top is inclined to wander around a bit.

To allow me to get close to the mast head I dropped off 1 of the main guys which still leaves 6 more at the top.
Anyway I loaded the cage with all the tools and went aloft trailing a length of rope. When locked in at the top my chin was at the hub height. Off with 4 lock nuts and off came the blades.  Last time her ladyship was apart I sleeved the 4 holes that the hub studs pass through with some 15mm copper pipe.  This ensures that removing the blades does not involve a fight and the job was  simple.

The tail came off easily and was lowered down and then finally the same for the alternator and frame. That was the hard work!

So safely back on the ground and a quick inspection confirms that the bearing is on the way out. So another little job on the list. But no panic as we are now bathed in warm sunshine for the next 6 months or so and the PV will suffice!!









Look at this magnificent specimen of 1960 tech and still working, about as well as me!

Hi Tinbum, my thoughts are the same.  The reason for using the cheery picker is to assess the damage and dismantle aloft so as to ensure no further damage happened whist lowering .

Andy
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 11:09:35 AM by offthegridandy » Logged

8 KVA Lister TS2 Startamatic Genny
24 Volt 1000amp battery bank
Outback VFX3024
4.6 Kw PV array ground mounted
Outback Flexmax 80
2 X Flexmax 30 PV CC
2.5 Kw WT H Piggot design 4.5 Mtr Dia AC coupled
12 Mtr free standing Tower.
u/floor heating from oil boiler cross linked to 12 K wood stove
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