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Author Topic: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.  (Read 75815 times)
stannn
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« Reply #420 on: March 19, 2019, 09:38:02 PM »

Good answer. I was just considering wind loading during generation.
Stan
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snyggapa
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« Reply #421 on: March 19, 2019, 09:52:49 PM »

Why use 4 guys instead of 3?
Stan

more importantly, why is it anchored to a boar?
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camillitech
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« Reply #422 on: March 20, 2019, 05:40:49 AM »

4 guys is far superior to 3 because you can put a winch on one guy and lower the turbine safely without loosening the other 3. You just have to make sure the guys on left and right of the winch are lined up with the hinge point so they stay under the same tension when the tower is up or down.

Aye Rog, just Googled it after I posted, it seems to be the 'done thing.

Cheers, Paul
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'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
biff
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« Reply #423 on: March 20, 2019, 06:56:55 AM »

4 guys is good
        Safety rope opposite  the winch and the appropriate weights on the safety means that you can raise and lower in low winds safely. I cannot stress the importance of appropriate weights on the safety rope .
Finally I have come round to using the remote control for the winch.I simply cannot praise the remote control enough. Saves an awful lot of running about.
          Biff
   
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An unpaid Navitron volunteer,who has been living off-grid,powered by wind and solar,each year better than the last one.
offthegridandy
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« Reply #424 on: April 03, 2019, 08:47:21 PM »

Hi all, has to be said the pages here  at present do look a mess but I'm sure it'll work out in the end.

Delighted to report that the "beast" is still up and working a treat.  As a crude measure but ultimately the only one that counts; since the WT was winched back into place I have not had the Lister genny running for 1 minute. I could go and read meters and tell of how many Kw the sun and wind have provided but in ús and pence I'm ahead on Red Diesel consumption and that's what counts for me.

I am having some teething problems with the AC grid tie synchronization when the sun is bright and wind is up. On a couple of occasions the GTI has disconnected and the turbine has run off load.  I have reset the reconnect time to 30 seconds now so the unloaded time is limited though.  However seeing the WT run unloaded I have clocked the incoming voltage to 525V and the turbine has been smooth and steady, just rather faster than I'd like so the overall balance must be OK.

At present I'm using the Outback FM80 Aux (PWM)relay to trigger the dump load and in extremis I think the rate of change is too fast for the GTI to keep up with.  A couple of days ago with 12 mtr second wind plus bright sun,  the battery was full and as the PWM relay dumped power the battery volts was rapidly fluctuating between 28.5 and 31.8.  I can't monitor the "grid" frequency but the GTI couldn't keep in sync and dropped out. Billi has suggested trying a DC dump load direct from the battery which is fairly simple to arrange and may be the next thing to try.

I regard this as teething problem and not insurmountable.  By and large the turbine is great and I'm sure glad I persevered to the end.

I have tested the manual furling and it works so I have purchased a small boat trailer winch (600Lbs pull) to permanently fit at the base of the tower; so should the need arise I can furl the tail and park the  turbine "edge" on to the wind for safety.  Don't know if I'll need it but it feels good to know the option exists if needed.  So next up is drill some holes in the 10mm galvanised steel tower to secure the winch in place.

Cheers for now.

Andy.
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8 KVA Lister TS2 Startamatic Genny
24 Volt 1000amp battery bank
Outback VFX3024
4.6 Kw PV array ground mounted
Outback Flexmax 80
2 X Flexmax 30 PV CC
2.5 Kw WT H Piggot design 4.5 Mtr Dia AC coupled
12 Mtr free standing Tower.
u/floor heating from oil boiler cross linked to 12 K wood stove
biff
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« Reply #425 on: April 03, 2019, 09:46:44 PM »

Hello Andy,
       I am delighted to hear that you have your Baby up and running and it must be good by the sound of things. It troubles me that it runs free at such a high voltage. You could be shortening it,s life unnecessarily. If it gets caught in a high wind it might fry.
    I use two x 2kw dump loads. One with an extra 200ft to the second 138vdc immersion. So that they do not kick in together at the one time creating a very sudden brake on the Turbine innards. It works very smooth and one has to stare at it to see it perform its braking maneuvers.
   Tweaking the Dumps it everything. Donegal uses a 1500watt immersion and then a smaller one again, His Turbine has now settled down to perform really well heating the water in his large GSHP  Hot Tank.
  I use 2 x 2kw DC immersions because not only does it run smoother and brake calmly, It is a better method of overall control. If by chance one of my dump loads fail, the voltage starts to climb and the single 2kw can hold it at 146vdc until I get things sorted. It is also a good idea to have a set of those big green resistors set up on stalks all ready plumbed in but for one wire which can be connected in seconds should the need arise.
 The savings on Diesel is the big one. That says it all.
  Well done.
           Biff
         
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todthedog
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« Reply #426 on: April 04, 2019, 06:28:54 AM »

Great to hear that it is running well Andy.
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offthegridandy
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« Reply #427 on: April 04, 2019, 09:07:31 AM »

Hi Biff and cheers Tod. 

Biff I agree if the WT was running at high speed continuously I'd be in deep do do. However once I sort out the synchronizing it wont be an issue. To my knowledge it has only happened the once that the input volts reached 525,and I do have the Aurora windsave in place. This is the AC to DC interface.  It has 3KW heater elements (dump load) wired to the DC output and in the event of the AC disconnect they pick up the  load when the input exceeds 525VDC and slow the beast down again.  The dump load stays connected down to 415V IIRC.

I have the reconnect time on the GTI set at 30 seconds now so the time the WT is actually running free now is minimal and the dump load hardly has time to even start to get warm.

As I say this is synchronizing problem is not with out solution and will be addressed shortly when I decide which course of action to try first.

Thanks for your concern and input.

Hope you and yours are all enjoying todays' nice easterly.  We have wet slushy snow and temp about 1 degree over freezing.

I'm in the process of extending out fruit cage in the garden at present but I won't be out there today methinks.



I think you can see 3 off green, air heater elements in the top of this image.

Andy
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8 KVA Lister TS2 Startamatic Genny
24 Volt 1000amp battery bank
Outback VFX3024
4.6 Kw PV array ground mounted
Outback Flexmax 80
2 X Flexmax 30 PV CC
2.5 Kw WT H Piggot design 4.5 Mtr Dia AC coupled
12 Mtr free standing Tower.
u/floor heating from oil boiler cross linked to 12 K wood stove
donegal
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« Reply #428 on: April 04, 2019, 10:20:05 AM »

Thats Some Job Andy, it sounds like your heading for an ideal setup.  i dont quite understand how your batteries are connected in the system, as they appear to be
de-coupled from the turbine when the syncronisation drops, is this the standard way of doing this ?

Tony
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offthegridandy
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« Reply #429 on: April 04, 2019, 11:10:27 AM »

Hi Donegal, thanks for your interest.

The complete system is as follows.

24V 1000Ahr C5 battery.  
Main house inverter/charger Outback FX3024
4.6Kw PV panels ground mount in 4 arrays. 72V nominal strings.
Outback FM80 charge controller
2 off Outback Fm30 CC
3Kw WT with "wild" AC output.
Aurora windsave AC to Dc rectifier.CW 3 KW dump load
Aurora GTI DC to AC output synced to house inverter.
Lister 8KVA genny.
All house loads are 220VAC.

All the PV connects to the DC bus via charge controllers and charges the battery.
If required, the Lister provides AC that supplies house (AC) AND charges the battery (DC). The charge rate is controlled by the FX3024.

WT output via GTI connects to the house AC bus; 1stly powering house then any surplus back feeds through the FX3024 inverter/charger and feeds the battery.

This charging is uncontrolled and could result in overcharging the battery. So an AC immersion heater is connected as a dump load. which is triggered by a DC signal when a high battery setting is reached.

The problem I have to solve is that the GTI synchronizes with the house grid.  The house grid is slightly unstable due I think to differing supply and demand. Ie wind and PV inputs constantly changing plus varying ac house loads.

99% of the time it's fine but with max input from the PV and a good strong wing and the battery is full, the dump load starts and it uses a solid state relay which allows a pulse of energy rather than acting as a direct switch on.

I think this pulsed output is causing a "flicker" on the grid frequency which the GTI inverter identifies as a fault so disconnects the WT.  The GTI is programmed to automatically reconnect itself, now set at 30 seconds delay, so more of a nuisance than a disaster.

One suggestion, from Billi is to use a DC dump load.  Another thought is to try using a regular relay rather than a PWM solid sate relay. A dearer 3rd option would I think be to set up another inverter to do the dump load so it is effectively isolated from the grid.

So it's not the battery being decoupled rather just the WT output from the grid tie inverter to the house.

It's all a learning curve.  Outback products I have found to be very reliable but for years they didn't support the concept of AC coupling and are a bit sniffy about offering support.  I believe they figure they could become liable for expensive blue smoke feek ups due to uncontrolled back feeding their inverters.  Although the latest bulletiins from them now make allowance for it as the have products to sell.

Hope the long ramble above explains.

Cheers.

Andy
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 11:12:01 AM by offthegridandy » Logged

8 KVA Lister TS2 Startamatic Genny
24 Volt 1000amp battery bank
Outback VFX3024
4.6 Kw PV array ground mounted
Outback Flexmax 80
2 X Flexmax 30 PV CC
2.5 Kw WT H Piggot design 4.5 Mtr Dia AC coupled
12 Mtr free standing Tower.
u/floor heating from oil boiler cross linked to 12 K wood stove
knighty
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« Reply #430 on: April 04, 2019, 11:49:15 AM »

could you not fit an extra dump load direct to the wind turbine AC, have it trigger on when your DC dump load is triggered?
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Iain
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« Reply #431 on: April 04, 2019, 12:10:40 PM »

Hi
Could you use something similar to this?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Phase-Failure-Relay-with-Under-Over-Voltage-Relays/202089839951?hash=item2f0d7e3d4f:g:dNYAAOSwVA5Z7gF9

There are loads of different ones with different limits, settings.

It would sit monitoring the AC side and could operate a relay at a preset voltage to change over the output to a dump resistor to limit the max AC voltage. Not sure how much hysteresis you would need to keep it stable.

Or does the GTI for the turbine have a relay built in? Some do.
It could then be st up to add a dump load to the AC side when the GTI disconnects, triggered by the GTI relay.
Iain
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20 x 65mm Thermal and 180ltr unvented
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offthegridandy
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« Reply #432 on: April 04, 2019, 12:20:00 PM »

Hi Knighty,  it is an ac dump load I have on the house AC bus which is triggered by a DC signal from the Aux relay on the PV charge controller (FM80).  I can't just take the AC output from the WT and directly divert that to the immersion heater because the Aurora GTI has to see the the house "grid" or it disconnects itself as it "see's a fault.

Billis idea to use a DC immersion heater in place of the AC one has merit as the power is coming direct of the battery not via the inverter, although I would possibly have to either disable the generator auto start or use a smaller element size.  If the genny starts it's frequency is variable and THAT will then kick out the GTI.  But ideally I need to be able to dump the full WT output of around 3KW which is the maximum continuous load the inverter will handle. Which brings me back to having another inverter to simply handle the dump load which is the most expensive option.

I'm minded to try an ordinary relay in place of the SSR first. The genny is set to start automatically if AC demand exceeds a preset figure for programmable time delay.  If the WT is fully satisfying any house load firstly and then I add in 3KW (max) immersion heater as the dump load then I "think or hope" that the genny wouldn't get a start signal.

In my grey beard years now and I like to think things through before jumping and welcome any ones thoughts that help to clarify the issue.

Cheers.

Andy
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8 KVA Lister TS2 Startamatic Genny
24 Volt 1000amp battery bank
Outback VFX3024
4.6 Kw PV array ground mounted
Outback Flexmax 80
2 X Flexmax 30 PV CC
2.5 Kw WT H Piggot design 4.5 Mtr Dia AC coupled
12 Mtr free standing Tower.
u/floor heating from oil boiler cross linked to 12 K wood stove
offthegridandy
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« Reply #433 on: April 04, 2019, 12:21:13 PM »

Ian, thanks for this.  After lunch I'll read up on this and give it some thought.  Thank you very much.

Andy
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8 KVA Lister TS2 Startamatic Genny
24 Volt 1000amp battery bank
Outback VFX3024
4.6 Kw PV array ground mounted
Outback Flexmax 80
2 X Flexmax 30 PV CC
2.5 Kw WT H Piggot design 4.5 Mtr Dia AC coupled
12 Mtr free standing Tower.
u/floor heating from oil boiler cross linked to 12 K wood stove
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« Reply #434 on: April 04, 2019, 01:44:16 PM »

Andy - This has been a good read and were I to build my own turbine it would be essential reference. Nice to see it concluding successfully.

I've always been interested in how you would marry the DC/AC coupling. Still having a bit of difficulty getting my head round your complete system despite your above explanation for Donegal. I am not familiar with Outbacks at a working level though.

Quote
I am having some teething problems with the AC grid tie synchronization
How exactly is this synchronisation configured?
Are you trying to precisely align battery voltage, as measured by one controller, with "grid" frequency, controlled by another?
Does the Aurora have an adjustable frequency shift range?

Different set-up I know, but with my system (with both frequency and voltage controlled by the same inverter/controller) there is still an inconsistent lag and it is the batteries that effectively provide the buffer before diversion. Maybe just a matter of fiddling about with your setpoints and hysterisis.

Regards generator auto start. I have a simple relay>contactor arrangement which takes it's signal from the generator feed and isolates the main diversions during the warm-up period before the Inverter/charger internal relay engages. Works fine and if there is renewable generation during a run the generator simply modulates to compensate. Generator frequency never gets high enough to interfere with the GTIs.

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Off grid AC coupled, 6kW Proven, 2.8kW PV, SMA SI/SB/WB Inverters, 4x576ah Rolls batteries @ 24v, 25kW Biomass Boiler, Wood Stoves, Spring/Well water. Sorry planet - I did try.
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