navitron
 
Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Anyone wishing to register as a new member on the forum is strongly recommended to use a "proper" email address - following recent spam/hack attempts on the forum, all security is set to "high", and "disposable" email addresses like Gmail, Yahoo and Hotmail tend to be viewed with suspicion, and the application rejected if there is any doubt whatsoever
 
Recent Articles: Navitron Partners With Solax to Help Create A More Sustainable Future | Navitron Calls for Increased Carbon Footprint Reduction In Light of Earth Overshoot Day | A plea from The David School - Issue 18
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 26 27 28 29 [30] 31 32 33   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Half built Hugh Piggot turbine.  (Read 78712 times)
offthegridandy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1002



« Reply #435 on: April 04, 2019, 08:51:18 PM »

Hi HH hope your well, as is evident it's all new to me too and I'm merely following in the tracks of others.

Basically the house inverter creates the "grid" inverting battery power and delivering 220VAC at 50Hz.
The Aurora GTI seeks to synchronize to the "grid" and deliver all the energy from the WT to the house and back charge to the battery. Of course the GTI is designed to work with the very stable National Grid. But if the grid fails the GTI disconnects for safety and if the frequency shift too much the GTI see's that as a fault and disconnects.

The house invertor is designed to deliver 50 Hz and is not designed to be fiddled with but the GTI has a range of settings both for supply voltage and frequency. After my initial experience I obtained the installer password and set those variables to their widest range which I think is +/- 3 htz for frequency.  I have no experience on which to base that decision and simply figured that the  widest range might solve the problem

The Lister genny is set to supply 50Hz at 1500rpm and when its running the Outback invertor will pass the incoming power from the lister straight to the house as well as charging the battery up to 90amp DC (24V). As the house load varies there can be a small lag as the engine recovers from the extra loading which means that the frequency fluctuates and this can/will cause the GTI to record a "grid fault". Mainly I can live with this as with the WT operating it's unlikely that the genny will run anyway so not normally needed. I can though use the gen start signal to operate another relay and "turn off" the GTI so it doesn't keep trying to reconnect when the genny is running. If there is little or no wind I can't see that as a problem and I could also have a brake switch that was similarly actuated just to make things more sophisticated or complex

I'm 99% certain that the frequency problem for the GTI is caused by the signal to the SSR that controls the AC immersion heater dump load.  This SSR gets a PWM signal from a PV charge controllers auxillary port and is set to start to operate when batteries are full. The signal can be adjusted to start when battery volts exceed the absorb charge level, there is a setting for time delay off as well as hysteresis.  The problem I had a few days ago was when PV was pouring in and the WT was adding in another 2Kw or so and it's only in these circumstances that the problem occurs. I think I CAN set the Aux relay to trigger at a level just below the absorb setting.  If I set it this way though I think the PV will just throttle back at absorb and I will not be able to harvest anything from that source. 

But maybe that's actually the problem. The PV will be sending energy to the battery DC and on to the invertor to dump load at the same time as the WT.  The wild fluctuation on the DC side could be too fast for the invertor to react to, giving an unstable frequency on the house grid, so the GTI see's a fault and drops out.

I'm in the dark really as to what these setting for the Aux relay should be and as I said earlier I can get no help from Outback. It seemed to me that the pulse was very short and the delay between them was very long, during which time the large AC input from the WT was ramping up the battery voltage.

Of course I can guess at the settings then have to wait for similar weather conditions to see what the effect is. I don't like guessing and would rather leave alone until I have some idea which direction to move.

I will dig out the manuals again, (you know real books) and study the full range of settings for the Aux port and try to figure out the implications.  I'd like to be able to divert that to the dump load (DHW) in summer.  I only have the one aux port to use and it may be I can only get to divert from the WT and not from both sources. Bummer for the summer if that's the case though.


Logged

8 KVA Lister TS2 Startamatic Genny
24 Volt 1000amp battery bank
Outback VFX3024
4.6 Kw PV array ground mounted
Outback Flexmax 80
2 X Flexmax 30 PV CC
2.5 Kw WT H Piggot design 4.5 Mtr Dia AC coupled
12 Mtr free standing Tower.
u/floor heating from oil boiler cross linked to 12 K wood stove
rogeriko
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1425



WWW
« Reply #436 on: April 04, 2019, 09:49:43 PM »

Dont forget you can rectify the generator output to give you 380 volts DC and then run that through another GTI and into the circuit that way, that would solve your problems. As the batteries charge the Generator GTI would back off with the frequency increase from the main 50hz inverter and slow down the generator output. The house inverter has to be king in charge of everything.
Logged

biff
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11964


An unpaid Navitron volunteer who lives off-grid.


« Reply #437 on: April 04, 2019, 11:05:03 PM »

 Good stuff Andy and Roger.
                             Biff
Logged

An unpaid Navitron volunteer,who has been living off-grid,powered by wind and solar,each year better than the last one.
billi
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8944



WWW
« Reply #438 on: April 05, 2019, 08:27:15 AM »

Hi Andi , if you go the DC route  , that would  be more harmonic for your home electricity quality , than please remember to  take a serious thought about where excess PV and Lister  juice is flowing......
Logged

1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
biff
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11964


An unpaid Navitron volunteer who lives off-grid.


« Reply #439 on: April 05, 2019, 09:14:15 AM »

It does not happen too often. Maybe once every 2 years but yesterday morning Mrs Biff accidentally overloaded our system and the Inverter shut down. There was no problem. She waited 15 minutes till I got back and it was just a simple little job of switching off our Chinese inverter and then switching it back on to see the little face on the dash smile again.
Our 2 x 2kw 138vdc dump loads just kept working away as normal. Their wiring and controllers were independent of the AC side. It is not a bad way to work it. IT is simple and effective and super reliable.
               Biff
Logged

An unpaid Navitron volunteer,who has been living off-grid,powered by wind and solar,each year better than the last one.
rogeriko
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1425



WWW
« Reply #440 on: April 06, 2019, 12:02:01 AM »

Hi Andi , if you go the DC route  , that would  be more harmonic for your home electricity quality , than please remember to  take a serious thought about where excess PV and Lister  juice is flowing......

There would be no exess juice because the solar and lister GTI's just back off and stop producing because of the frequency shifting from the inverter. The lister just sees a lowering demand and slows down the fuel supply.
Logged

camillitech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5415



WWW
« Reply #441 on: April 06, 2019, 10:14:27 AM »

Hi Andi , if you go the DC route  , that would  be more harmonic for your home electricity quality , than please remember to  take a serious thought about where excess PV and Lister  juice is flowing......

There would be no exess juice because the solar and lister GTI's just back off and stop producing because of the frequency shifting from the inverter. The lister just sees a lowering demand and slows down the fuel supply.

Is the Outback capable of 'frequency shifting' as far as I'm aware it isn't. Whilst the Sunny Island is, I don't use it and turned it off in 'settings', 'DC inputs only'. Andy will have to be careful where his 'juices' go as he dosnae want to cook his batteries or 'back feed' his generator. The SI has adjustable 'reverse power protection' the Outback certainly does not but methinks Andy understands this. Just a thought Andy, I see you are using the FM80's SSR to drive your diversion and perhaps therein is the problem (as you have alluded to). That is a pure AC diversion and there may be a 'lag' or hysteresis issue. I just realized that I use Hugh's 'TriStar follower circuit http://scoraigwind.co.uk/tristar-follower-to-control-ac-heaters/ which incorporates DC elements as a 'fail-safe' but I guess they also smooth out fluctuations caused by the SSR. I have noticed that even when diverting to the 3kW immersions (three of them in my system) they do get slightly warm. Also, I have the optional LCD display on the four TriStars that drive my dump loads and they seem to put around 12W to the DC elements as well as supplying the bulk to the AC elements.



I'm no 'sparky' but perhaps you could adapt Hugh's circuit by just using the output from the FM80 SSR instead of the Crydom I use. This 'AC coupling' is not for the feint hearted  Grin

Good luck, Paul
Logged

http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
heatherhopper
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #442 on: April 06, 2019, 11:21:49 AM »

Thanks for the further explanation Andy. Think I understand a bit better now but a couple of questions still. Paul has rather beaten me to it but I''ll ask them anyway.

I assumed the VFX does not employ "active" frequency shifting (not tradtionally supported by Outback except perhaps in their US Radian series) and this seemed to be confirmed by your earlier statement:

Quote
WT output via GTI connects to the house AC bus; 1stly powering house then any surplus back feeds through the FX3024 inverter/charger and feeds the battery.

This charging is uncontrolled and could result in overcharging the battery.

Is control of battery charging completely fulfilled by the DC side chargers (including the AC diversion control) and you have effectively disabled the VFX battery control - by setting lower voltage setpoints for DC chargers for example? If not, would this not cause the VFX to terminate the AC input on AC overcurrent if the AC diversion timing was not synchronised rather than the Aurora itself responding to frequency change?

If so you have the perennial problem of mixing AC and DC charging sources and diversions which do not operate on the same control loop. Paul's solution is one way round it but methinks the SI is rather more adaptable than the Outback in this respect. Not an insurmountable problem as you say but some fiddling required.

Since you only have the issue at high generation rates is it possible the AC immersion is cutting out (thermally triggered)? A standard AC immersion, in a standard tank, does not necessarily operate continuously. I have this issue, hence multiple diversions!

Interested to see how you get on.

Oops - edited above to read "lower voltage setpoints"
« Last Edit: April 06, 2019, 06:00:31 PM by heatherhopper » Logged

Off grid AC coupled, 6kW Proven, 2.8kW PV, SMA SI/SB/WB Inverters, 4x576ah Rolls batteries @ 24v, 25kW Biomass Boiler, Wood Stoves, Spring/Well water. Sorry planet - I did try.
camillitech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5415



WWW
« Reply #443 on: April 07, 2019, 08:57:41 AM »



Is control of battery charging completely fulfilled by the DC side chargers (including the AC diversion control) and you have effectively disabled the VFX battery control - by setting lower voltage setpoints for DC chargers for example? If not, would this not cause the VFX to terminate the AC input on AC overcurrent if the AC diversion timing was not synchronised rather than the Aurora itself responding to frequency change?

If so you have the perennial problem of mixing AC and DC charging sources and diversions which do not operate on the same control loop. Paul's solution is one way round it but methinks the SI is rather more adaptable than the Outback in this respect. Not an insurmountable problem as you say but some fiddling required.

Since you only have the issue at high generation rates is it possible the AC immersion is cutting out (thermally triggered)? A standard AC immersion, in a standard tank, does not necessarily operate continuously. I have this issue, hence multiple diversions!

Interested to see how you get on.

Oops - edited above to read "lower voltage setpoints"


To be honest H/H methinks the Outback is probably better at it because it will not 'interfere' with the charging. The SI is very 'set in its ways' and the charging based on flawed algorithms that try and achieve the impossible. That is to say, accurately monitor SOC and base all its decisions on on what it perceives the batteries current state of charge is. The Outback and my old Trace inverter just used voltage and time which is a far more reliable method overall. You can see this if you log the SI's '% SOC error' in Excel, at least you can on my system where I spend a lot of time on 'float'. Over time it starts to 'wander off' and then will occasionally 'fall off a cliff edge' and go from 80% to 20% and do a reset. As far as is possible I let my TriStars handle the battery charging and only leave the generator in 'Auto' if I am away from home with a house, pig, dog and hen sitter in charge as I do not have a smiling Chinaman  Grin   
Logged

http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
biff
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11964


An unpaid Navitron volunteer who lives off-grid.


« Reply #444 on: April 07, 2019, 09:55:21 AM »

 fingers crossed!
 Smiling  China man work well. Him glum something wrong . Him smiling all is hunky dory
No need no manual.  Codes. Or calls to nice ladies in call centre in faraway country.
 JUST SWITCH OFF AND THEN SWITCH ON.  Even I can do it
    Biff
Logged

An unpaid Navitron volunteer,who has been living off-grid,powered by wind and solar,each year better than the last one.
billi
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8944



WWW
« Reply #445 on: April 07, 2019, 11:37:16 AM »

Both Victron ( in times when their inverter was not doing frequency shifting like mine)  and Outback ,  told me  to  make sure, that all  surplus  can be dumped, if i go the AC couple route with my Victron  or outback told me to size the dump bigger or the size of the highest expected arriving wattage at the battery

Also i was told and had quotes for SSR  to get a heatsink or cooling idea attached to the SSR ,  as well have a security Plan B,  in case something fails 

So my idea at the time was , two  100 A SSR  to grant that upto 5000 watt ,  can be dumped  to DC heaters  ,  and Plan B was, to program the AC relay in the victron  to activate an AC heater,  when voltage of battery was getting higher than the SSR  allow

I ended  then  just to do the AC dumping via  the Inverter , sure not so efficient as the DC idea , but honestly i did not want more electric gadgets in my energy room , that noone beside me  in the family nor my electrician could follow  to understand  (when i am working abroad )

I guess those where the days  i decided   for the slogan " keep it simple" , sure its not too easy  in a hybrid system with wind  , but i was lucky to find out that my windturbine  was breaked by its charchcontrolers heatelement , even when not connected to the battery , so i diconected her from the battery and bought a GTI  that allowed me than to start feeding the house at about 20 Volts DC   much much earlier harvesting then if she was direct battery charging
The AC couppling with the Victron  at the time was something Victon  did not give me warranty and said its my risk , but the main engineer said , it will be fine , oh boy ......was that an interesting moment , when i first switched on the GTI and saw  direct AC flowing through the Victrons into the house from the Turbine  and  saw then the AC charging via the inbuilt charger too ... worked very harmonic , but  GTI  stopped when washingmaschine or Diesel generator on.

So  then the resistor in the  charge-controller took over   for that time ....

If you double up your Outback inverter  then i guess you have enough inverter capacity to dump on the AC side and satisfy the  household loads  in parallel ( just a (expensive) thought )

Best regards Billi
Logged

1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
heatherhopper
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #446 on: April 07, 2019, 03:16:36 PM »

Paul - The only point I was trying to make was that the VFX (and I'm not even sure exactly which model Andy has) and SI have different installation and set-up options and requirements for AC coupling. There appeared to be some confusion in the thread about whether Andy has frequency shift available/operational, which I think we agree he probably hasn't, so I was simply looking for confirmation that Andy had effectively "disabled" the VFX charger responsibilities (similar to that which you have done with the SI) and handed the duty to DC chargers. If he has I think the VFX AC coupling method may be subtely different to the SI.

I was not making any comparisons between the VFX and SI normal charging regimes which would be pointless anyway if they are "not operational". Always willing to debate the merits of the various Inverter/chargers but I think we know that this kind of discussion can be subject to some very poorly informed, but well entrenched, myth. I agree the SI regime can seem overly fussy but it can be programmed less so. When I had doubts in the early days I always asked myself whether the folk at SMA were really a bunch of idiots or whether their logic had a point. Battery charging can be regarded as a simple matter of holding the terminal voltage at various levels for various periods and obviously works ok. Personally I doubt that gives a complete evaluation of the status of a "working" battery bank but without a comparison of two otherwise identical systems using different regimes we will never know.

Quote
Both Victron ( in times when their inverter was not doing frequency shifting like mine)  and Outback ,  told me  to  make sure, that all  surplus  can be dumped, if i go the AC couple route with my Victron  or outback told me to size the dump bigger or the size of the highest expected arriving wattage at the battery

Billi - in the early days with a DC connected turbine I had the opposite problem. AC diversion handled the excess fine but the turbine controller could not control the turbine speed without a direct DC connected dump as it seemed to register the low resistance AC dump path as an under-voltage battery. Adjusting the charge settings only partially sorted the issue due, I think, to the rapid variability of wind generation The turbine manufacturer had trouble getting their heads round the AC coupling at the time and were adamant a DC dump was not necessary - what chance us mere mortals? As Paul said AC coupling is not for the feint-hearted but the basic principles are not complicated, you just need everything in balance.

Looks like Andy's system is 99% working with only certain conditions needing to be addressed.
Logged

Off grid AC coupled, 6kW Proven, 2.8kW PV, SMA SI/SB/WB Inverters, 4x576ah Rolls batteries @ 24v, 25kW Biomass Boiler, Wood Stoves, Spring/Well water. Sorry planet - I did try.
camillitech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5415



WWW
« Reply #447 on: April 07, 2019, 06:05:54 PM »

Hi H/H,

the only point I was trying to make and probably badly is that if you use the SI for generator control then it's not ideal cos you do have to rely on what it thinks your SOC is and I have found it to be fundamentally flawed. I think Nowty has come to the same conclusion for if the batteries remain in float mode for a long while the SOC % error seems to widen then 'fall off a cliff edge'. The Outbacks, Trace and older Victron's use a time/voltage algorithm which is much more dependable. In a system where generator use is frequent and you are not mixing your inputs then this doesn't seem to be a problem and the SI will probably take better care of your batteries. However I feel in a situation like mine and probably Andy's, the Outback is a better option than an SI. You always said that mixing AC and DC sources would be 'interesting' well you are right  Grin
Logged

http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
heatherhopper
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 347


« Reply #448 on: April 08, 2019, 12:46:06 PM »

Afternoon Paul, I trust you again up to your armpits in more concreting.

I guess we will need to agree to differ regarding relative SOC capabilities. I regard all the "industry standard" SOC capabilities on active batteries as variable estimations and I have seen no evidence whatsoever that they use substantially different basic algorithms. Sure they all tweak it a bit to make it look a bit more proprietary but they are all limited to the same basic input information and calculating methods. Happy to be proved wrong on this but when I have asked on here no-one has ever provided any more clarity.
I agree the SI is a bit more fussy than others but that does not mean it's SOC declaration is wrong. I would say it is just declaring an inconvenient truth. I too have experienced the recalibration resets in some of the numerous charge settings I have tried. When I looked back over the preceeding period it was quite apparent that the batteries had become under-charged (and I verified this on a subsequent occasion by taking them off-line for the standard checks). Not under-charged to a worrying extent but sufficiently to offend the teutonic logic which is certainly a bit too quick to declare, and act on, an issue if you let it. Simply fiddling about with charge settings and auto generator settings has eliminated the problem as routine - only ever see it if I forget to isolate one of the large secondary diversions prior to starting the generator at low SOC (auto disabling these is work in progress!). However I have both Full Charge and Equalisation disabled and prefer to manually instigate one or other as I see fit so I do keep an eye on the SOC error drift (particularly ErrSocVtgCal). A fairly rare event as with a small battery bank and reasonably consistent generation the system operates fine on just Boost.
How you set-up is always dependent on your individual equipment/requirements whatever the charger - I'm not sure there could ever be a satisfactory default. For example if I had a PV-only system or limited charger potential or a daily requirement to run a generator I think I would simply revert to Full Charge only on a daily basis - SMA would probably be horrified.

You will probably have seen it, or something similar, but I attach a document which I found useful in understanding what I was working with in the early days. Describes (in very basic form) the SOC logic. Possibly redundant now but may be of use to someone thinking of buying s/h gear.

Drifted well off the main topic - apologies Andy.


* SI_Batteriemanagement-TI-en-21.pdf (276.08 KB - downloaded 31 times.)
Logged

Off grid AC coupled, 6kW Proven, 2.8kW PV, SMA SI/SB/WB Inverters, 4x576ah Rolls batteries @ 24v, 25kW Biomass Boiler, Wood Stoves, Spring/Well water. Sorry planet - I did try.
camillitech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5415



WWW
« Reply #449 on: April 08, 2019, 07:33:49 PM »

Afternoon Paul, I trust you again up to your armpits in more concreting.

I guess we will need to agree to differ regarding relative SOC capabilities.


Aye H/H, but my point was that the older inverters do not even try to estimate SOC (sure we can both agree accurate estimation is nigh on impossible) they just use simple time/voltage settings and do not attempt to work out the complexities of counting Ah out/Ah in and all the variables of temp, load etc. Sure it's not half as sophisticated and may well not, in the long run be as good for your batteries but in a 'mish mash' system like my own it would make my life easier. My old Trace had just a handful of easily adjusted parameters for triggering and stopping the generator, a certain load for a certain time would trigger a start/run for whatever time you cared to choose. If the batteries sat at a certain voltage for another adjustable period it would do a full charge and so on. Methinks in a sensible 'AC coupled' system with FSPC enabled the SI is well 'fit for purpose' and more, but it's very difficult to get around that Teutonic logic  Grin And thanks for the document, I had actually lost it  Roll Eyes A nice lady at SMA sent me a link a couple of years ago when I first experienced the 20% reset which invariably happened in the middle of the night when my boy was having one of his twenty minute midnight showers and the 3kW immersion was on for too long. I know you didn't like the way I left it on 24/7 (neither did Hugh Piggott  Cheesy ) but I don't do that anymore and my boy is at Uni anyway so I no longer have the problem  Wink  And yes, sorry for the 'diversion' Andy.

Cheers, P
Logged

http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
Pages: 1 ... 26 27 28 29 [30] 31 32 33   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums
Simple Audio Video Embedder
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!