navitron
 
Renewable Energy and Sustainability Forum
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Anyone wishing to register as a new member on the forum is strongly recommended to use a "proper" email address - following recent spam/hack attempts on the forum, all security is set to "high", and "disposable" email addresses like Gmail, Yahoo and Hotmail tend to be viewed with suspicion, and the application rejected if there is any doubt whatsoever
 
Recent Articles: Navitron Partners With Solax to Help Create A More Sustainable Future | Navitron Calls for Increased Carbon Footprint Reduction In Light of Earth Overshoot Day | A plea from The David School - Issue 18
   Home   Help Search Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Adding a grid tie turbine to an off grid setup  (Read 3454 times)
camillitech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5417



WWW
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2015, 07:03:07 AM »

Quote
'AC coupling' a grid tied wind turbine is a great way for 'off gridders' to acquire a quality turbine for a fraction of the cost of a battery charging version.



....   , na , this is not generally true  !

direct Battery charging is  fine and and achieved with a lower budget , surely a MPPT charge -controller  to improve the performance and able to cope with higher voltages to track the turbines voltage down to battery voltage is  more costly , but generally not more costly than 'AC coupling'


Billi



Direct charging is better but if you can get a complete Proven 2.5kW for 800 then you would be stupid not to 'AC couple' it. My turbine has generated 200kWh in 15 days. My 4.75kW PV around 40kWh. I also bought a complete 6kW (minus head) with 15m tower and WB6000 for 475 you cannot even buy a MPPT controller for that price. There have been two grid tied 6kW Proven's sold on eBlag recently for 4.5k, way out of my price range but they are capable of delivering 100kWh per day in the depths of winter as one 'AC coupled' off gridder will confirm.
Logged

http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
camillitech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5417



WWW
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2015, 07:06:22 AM »

Hi Woodi,

. Things to be aware of are that you will need some form of regulation to stop your batteries cooking and never to exceed the charging capacity of your inverter.

Cheers, Paul
Logged

http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
woodi
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 119



WWW
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2015, 07:47:36 AM »

Thanks folks. Not sure how I will get around the rather immovable limit of the Victron's charging capacity, but there is always a way...usually involving more kit, or bigger kit.. Cry Tis too good a turbine not to make use of somehow.
Update - found this from Victron - http://www.victronenergy.com/live/ac_coupling:start
This bit (I think) means that in theory at least I won't see smoke? -
Quote
In both grid-connected and off-grid systems with PV inverters installed on the output of a Multi, Inverter or Quattro, there is a maximum of PV power that can be installed. This limit is called the factor 1.0 rule: 3.000 VA Multi = 3.000 Wp installed solar power. So for a 8.000 VA Quattro the maximum is 8.000 Wp, for two paralleled 8000 VA Quattros the maximum is 16.000 Wp, etcetera.

Since the charger inside a 3000 VA Multi is not 3000 VA but closer to 2000 VA? The explanation lies in the fact that it will regulate . In other words: when there is too much power coming in, causing the charge current to exceed the limit, it will increase the output frequency again and will keep regulating the AC output frequency to charge with the limit.
An example, a 3000 VA Multi, with 3000 W of solar power coming out of a PV inverter:
When the Multi is connected to the grid, all 3000 W can be fed back to the grid through the Multi, no problem.
In case the Multi is not connected to the grid, the 3000 Wp is more than the charger in a Multi 3000 VA can handle. The charger is around 2000 W. Therefore the grid inverter assistant will automatically increase the frequency to reduce the output of the grid inverter, to match maximum charge current.
So my understanding is that the multi would shift the frequency, disconnect the Aurora which would then use its own dump load to prevent the turbine melting.
Or am I just being hopeful?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 08:07:13 AM by woodi » Logged

8kw PV - 40x80w; 8x100w;13x300w Victron 150/70, 100/50, 100/30 MPPT; 3x Victron Multiplus 24/3000/70; Color Control GX Monitoring; 1000ah@24v traction batteries - 50 tube solar thermal - 3kw Bornay Inclin grid tie/ac coupled wind turbine - wood fuel cooking & heating. 28kw Ponast wood pellet boiler
camillitech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5417



WWW
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2015, 08:10:18 AM »

Thanks folks. Not sure how I will get around the rather immovable limit of the Victron's charging capacity, but there is always a way...usually involving more kit, or bigger kit.. Cry Tis too good a turbine not to make use of somehow.

Hi Woodi,

you can always clamp the voltage at the 1300w threshold and divert the rest to heat http://scoraigwind.co.uk/2012/01/grid-connected-homebrew-wind-turbines/

Tis too good a turbine not to make use of somehow.

That's just how I felt about my 2.5 Proven, I already had the 6kW hardware and 15 mast but the 2.5kW was on sale here for weeks and none of the other 'off gridders' were interested. Sometimes you just HAVE to make things work, 'where there's a will there's a way'.

Good luck, Paul

Logged

http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
billi
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8946



WWW
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2015, 08:54:01 AM »

Quote
So my understanding is that the multi would shift the frequency, disconnect the Aurora which would then use its own dump load to prevent the turbine melting.
Or am I just being hopeful?

Sounds positive  to me , if your turbine and GTI can shift surplus power on a regular bases ..... and more important that your software in the Victron is able to  control  the GTI (mine wouldnot )


Quote
Direct charging is better but if you can get a complete Proven 2.5kW for 800 then you would be stupid not to 'AC couple' it. My turbine has generated 200kWh in 15 days. My 4.75kW PV around 40kWh. I also bought a complete 6kW (minus head) with 15m tower and WB6000 for 475 you cannot even buy a MPPT controller for that price. There have been two grid tied 6kW Proven's sold on eBlag recently for 4.5k, way out of my price range but they are capable of delivering 100kWh per day in the depths of winter as one 'AC coupled' off gridder will confirm.

Oh , thats good news  to get them second hand....
Paul  , but   close to 30000 for a 6 kw Proven turbine  new ,   excluding  the AC -coupling offgrid inverter and batteries  is , when bought new , quite  an amount of cash  whistlie
Logged

1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
woodi
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 119



WWW
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2015, 09:17:04 AM »

Yes Billi, it seems Victron have been able to push the newer Multis a bit further with firmware updates. Amazing what you can have them do via software now. I've got ours all hooked out through their Color Control panel to the outside world - https://vrm.victronenergy.com/site/share/3b08d1c1 which gives me something else to tinker with.
Logged

8kw PV - 40x80w; 8x100w;13x300w Victron 150/70, 100/50, 100/30 MPPT; 3x Victron Multiplus 24/3000/70; Color Control GX Monitoring; 1000ah@24v traction batteries - 50 tube solar thermal - 3kw Bornay Inclin grid tie/ac coupled wind turbine - wood fuel cooking & heating. 28kw Ponast wood pellet boiler
camillitech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5417



WWW
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2015, 09:20:52 AM »




Quote
Direct charging is better but if you can get a complete Proven 2.5kW for 800 then you would be stupid not to 'AC couple' it. My turbine has generated 200kWh in 15 days. My 4.75kW PV around 40kWh. I also bought a complete 6kW (minus head) with 15m tower and WB6000 for 475 you cannot even buy a MPPT controller for that price. There have been two grid tied 6kW Proven's sold on eBlag recently for 4.5k, way out of my price range but they are capable of delivering 100kWh per day in the depths of winter as one 'AC coupled' off gridder will confirm.

Oh , thats good news  to get them second hand....
Paul  , but   close to 30000 for a 6 kw Proven turbine  new ,   excluding  the AC -coupling offgrid inverter and batteries  is , when bought new , quite  an amount of cash  whistlie

Aye Billi, but that is what these 'AC coupling' threads are about, finding cheap grid tied turbines and making them work on systems that are already in place.

I say again, in my opinion there will be more and more grid tied wind turbines coming onto the second hand market. These will be turbines put up by local authorities in stupid places to 'satisfy their green credentials'. They will be turbines that work well and the owner now wants to put up a larger one but planning will only allow one. They will be turbines like Michiel's 11kW that are going to be removed because the new owner does not like it. They will be turbines that have to be removed because they are too noisey and turbines that simply do not work because they are in the wrong place.

Over the last twelve months I have seen all manner of grid tied turbines for sale because of the above reasons. People need to be made aware that these turbines CAN work 'off grid' but there are problems. We all know that given the choice DC is better.
Logged

http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
woodi
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 119



WWW
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2015, 09:28:00 AM »

This might be a stupid question, but if this turbine is rated as having a 120v output, wouldn't it be possible to rectify that and pass it to something like a 150/70 MPPT controller, using voltage switched relay to dump excess? As this came with an Aurora and the control gear I'll use it, but wondered whether there could be an alternative. I know that some of these turbines run at much higher voltages, but the Aurora apparently cuts in at 50v, and the turbine is only 120v according to the specs.....
Logged

8kw PV - 40x80w; 8x100w;13x300w Victron 150/70, 100/50, 100/30 MPPT; 3x Victron Multiplus 24/3000/70; Color Control GX Monitoring; 1000ah@24v traction batteries - 50 tube solar thermal - 3kw Bornay Inclin grid tie/ac coupled wind turbine - wood fuel cooking & heating. 28kw Ponast wood pellet boiler
camillitech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5417



WWW
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2015, 09:55:06 AM »

This might be a stupid question, but if this turbine is rated as having a 120v output, wouldn't it be possible to rectify that and pass it to something like a 150/70 MPPT controller, using voltage switched relay to dump excess? As this came with an Aurora and the control gear I'll use it, but wondered whether there could be an alternative. I know that some of these turbines run at much higher voltages, but the Aurora apparently cuts in at 50v, and the turbine is only 120v according to the specs.....

Definitely doable Woodi but when I priced this option for mine which is a 230v turbine the controllers were extortionate. You have to remember it's the the OC voltage you have to worry about. If my OC is over 600v on a 230v turbine then you need to be looking at 300v plus MPPT controllers I guess. I would have been far happier going down that route myself but I never thought of Hugh's idea of clamping the voltage then diverting to heat.

Good luck, Paul
Logged

http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
biff
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 11970


An unpaid Navitron volunteer who lives off-grid.


« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2015, 10:23:01 AM »

Hi Woodi,
              Are you sure that your turbine is rated at 120 before rectifying, ? Perhaps it is meant to power a 120vdc system. If this is the case then there are a decent selection of controller/inverters available, there are even cheaper UPS to be found that will deliver 2.7kw but it sounds very likely that it is 120vdc after rectifying.
  They do 24v and 48v for off grid but say that the 120v is for ongrid?
                                                                      Biff
Logged

An unpaid Navitron volunteer,who has been living off-grid,powered by wind and solar,each year better than the last one.
Ted
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3908



« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2015, 10:33:08 AM »

My understanding is that it is generating 3-phase AC at 150V rectified to 120V DC.
Logged

Volunteer moderator
woodi
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 119



WWW
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2015, 10:34:15 AM »

Yes, ish. Though I'm going to stick with AC coupling for now, as it looks like a goer with the kit I have. It was definitely an on grid system, coming with the Aurora box and controller, but I thought it was worth an ask about using the rectified DC. The 120v is just based on the guff on the Bornay literature. They don't seem to publish a lot of stuff about their grid tied version, but then presumably most sensible people just grid tie it and it gets on with the job. It's only when some awkward so and so like me decides to use it like this that the questions arise.
Having talked to everyone about it I am pretty confident that we can do this without killing the turbine, Aurora or Multiplus, as long as there is the right mix of dump loads to deal with any excess. Of course this guarantees that there will be no bloody wind for months after I put it up.....
Logged

8kw PV - 40x80w; 8x100w;13x300w Victron 150/70, 100/50, 100/30 MPPT; 3x Victron Multiplus 24/3000/70; Color Control GX Monitoring; 1000ah@24v traction batteries - 50 tube solar thermal - 3kw Bornay Inclin grid tie/ac coupled wind turbine - wood fuel cooking & heating. 28kw Ponast wood pellet boiler
camillitech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5417



WWW
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2015, 10:41:20 AM »

Remember to keep us informed of progress Wood, specially the 'brown trouser' moments, don't be shy  Grin
Logged

http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
woodi
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 119



WWW
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2015, 10:51:52 AM »

Fear not, I'm sure there will be many, and I'll do my best to capture as many as possible on camera Smiley Off to get the turbine head tested on monday, before the fun begins..
Logged

8kw PV - 40x80w; 8x100w;13x300w Victron 150/70, 100/50, 100/30 MPPT; 3x Victron Multiplus 24/3000/70; Color Control GX Monitoring; 1000ah@24v traction batteries - 50 tube solar thermal - 3kw Bornay Inclin grid tie/ac coupled wind turbine - wood fuel cooking & heating. 28kw Ponast wood pellet boiler
camillitech
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5417



WWW
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2015, 11:11:14 AM »

Fear not, I'm sure there will be many, and I'll do my best to capture as many as possible on camera Smiley Off to get the turbine head tested on monday, before the fun begins..

I'm really looking forward to this Woodi, as I said in a previous topic, I did look at the Bornay so it'll be good to see some pictures of it performing.

Good luck, Paul
Logged

http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums
Simple Audio Video Embedder
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!