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Author Topic: Another consequence of global warming  (Read 5095 times)
desperate
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« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2015, 06:20:48 PM »

We're barely able to get stuff 300miles up and back due to energy and financial constraints at the moment, bringing meaningfull amounts of stuff back from other planets and solar system bodies is never going to happen. Small samples maybe if we are lucky.

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« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2015, 11:23:58 PM »

PV=nRT. If the temperature increases, the pressure increases, and the kinetic energy of the molecules of atmosphere. Easier diffusion into space. I'd be interested to see figures for earth's rate of gas loss. The magnetic field certainly helps to hold onto a fair bit of it, but as Venus found out, even with a good magnetic field, increase the temperature and the gases boil off more quickly. I'm sure NASA's got a satellite or two measuring ion loss from Earth in the solar winds.

So far we've returned something like 30kg of moonrock, a few bits of comet dust and pretty much nothing else from any other worlds during the 50years or so that we've been capable of visiting other worlds, so there's some ground to make up!
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Ivan
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« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2015, 12:49:28 AM »

I thought I'd answer my own question:

The loss rate is currently tiny, only about three kilograms of hydrogen and 50 grams of helium (the two lightest gases) per second

....from http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-planets-lose-their-atmospheres/
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« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2015, 09:29:33 AM »

I don't understand why some people are so negativists.

Saying that mining & exploiting other planets will NEVER happen, sounds like someone who thinks technology has reached its peak,
There is NOTHING more to be discovered & invented in the future, and thus, no means of generating more power will EVER be discovered.
Resulting in a conclusion that we can NEVER bring useful stuff from other planets.

Or it sounds like someone who thinks we have only a couple of years before Earth goes bust, or at most 10 years probably.
Thus we won't have time to develop these new technologies.....

After 4.5 billion years, Earth is looking pretty good to me.
And don't forget, there were times (I repeat TIMES, not just a time), in Earth's history when it was MUCH more hotter than today (with no humans around to dump CO2 gasses),
And also there were TIMES when Earth was MUCH colder,

Science has proved that Earth is going through cycles (because of Solar activity, not because of living beings' activity)....peaking at very hot, and very cold, with medium in between.
Well it's clear that we are in a medium, going towards hot.
When Sun's output is like trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of what we humans can produce, do you really think WE are responsible for Earth going hot?

People are just scaring you, so you can pay more taxes, and they can have better income from doing NOTHING.
Because there is NOTHING that will stop Earth from going in the next peak (which looks like I said, it's going to be HOT).
What we NEED to do, is stop thinking we can keep the planet from going hot, and instead use our energy and time to develop technologies to help us live a happy life throughout the next cycle of HOT EARTH.

Stop tilting at windmills, people.


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biff
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« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2015, 09:48:06 AM »

Very good post HU,
                I am overcome with admiration for your brave stance and refusal to back down to the browbeaters of this world. I know there are certain people who will give you funny looks for expressing your opinion as you have but I am not one of them. I admire bravery and straight talking and your post was a breath of fresh air. Poetry in motion, I would call it. In fact I would put you along side the great Mc Gonagall. The one and only William Mc Gonagall whose parents came from this neck of the woods. William , like you, refused to be browbeaten and soldiered on to the end.
  You have my full support to express your point of view and the next time you hear of a space ship heading off to work on the mines,do please let me know. There are a lot of us Irishmen out of work and are not afraid to handle a pick and shovel.
                                                       Biff
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« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2015, 10:39:07 AM »

Agree with some of what he has to say.  BUT, there are coming up to 9 billion parasites (along with all the animals they nurture for food/transport/pets/etc) taking from the planet and giving back next to  uck all.  Not many animals would tolerate that many parasites without getting sick.  A symbiotic relationship would be tolerable but just acting like parasites is not sustainable in those numbers.
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Nickel2
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« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2015, 10:42:43 AM »

We may be losing a few kg per day of gasses to space, but every day the earth is hit by between 5 and 300 tons of space rocks. (Not man-made space-junk). These rocks are a mixture of many compounds; some of them gasses, some solids, bits of left-over comet-ice etc. They vapourise when they hit the atmosphere, so I suspect the balance is a gain in gas quantity rather than a loss.
Space may appear to be empty, but there gas molecules and dust particles in every cubic kilometre of space. There are a lot of cubic kilometres out there!
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desperate
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« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2015, 08:26:30 PM »

Saying that mining & exploiting other planets will NEVER happen, sounds like someone who thinks technology has reached its peak,
There is NOTHING more to be discovered & invented in the future, and thus, no means of generating more power will EVER be discovered.
Resulting in a conclusion that we can NEVER bring useful stuff from other planets.


It's nothing to do with technological limits, but rather energy and economic limits. It takes an enormous amount of energy to send a few kilos of mass up to low orbit let alone to bring it back without it burning up in the atmosphere. To get to even a close by asteriod or comet is a few years project at least and then to extract and recover a meaningfull mass in a meaningfull time span is not going to be even remotely worthwhile. It's not about what may or may not be developed in the future but the laws of physics as we understand them at the moment.

Or it sounds like someone who thinks we have only a couple of years before Earth goes bust, or at most 10 years probably.
Thus we won't have time to develop these new technologies.....


There is a fairly well developed theory that posits that we don't see or detect any alien life forms despite there probably being billions of planets in habitable zones because intelligent life tends to wipe itself out by messing up its host planet in one way or another. You don't have to look that far to see many examples of how that could happen.

After 4.5 billion years, Earth is looking pretty good to me.
And don't forget, there were times (I repeat TIMES, not just a time), in Earth's history when it was MUCH more hotter than today (with no humans around to dump CO2 gasses),
And also there were TIMES when Earth was MUCH colder,


Humans have only been capable of altering our environment for a couple of hundred years though, give us another 500 years and it wont look so pretty.

Science has proved that Earth is going through cycles (because of Solar activity, not because of living beings' activity)....peaking at very hot, and very cold, with medium in between.
Well it's clear that we are in a medium, going towards hot.
When Sun's output is like trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of what we humans can produce, do you really think WE are responsible for Earth going hot?


What science has gathered a lot of evidence for, is that over the last two hundred years we have altered the global climate much faster than anything that has happened before. Your argument that we are insignificant compared to the inputs of nature does not hold water IMHO. It is all about balance,  take CO2 for example, we release 34GT into the atmosphere every year which is a small fraction of the amount nature releases, but don't forget that nature also absorbs CO2 as well and for millions of years the two have almost been in balance, when it gets a bit out of balance then as you say we head for a hot or cold millennia or two. The 34GT we release is not balanced in natures budget so it is gradually increasing the overall levels which will overwhelm the atmospheres capability to absorb.

TBH I believe that your conspiracy theory is a lot of baloney, I'm not saying that politicians are above over doing the gloom and doom scenarios, but to dismiss it all as a scare story.........................sorry I just don't belieeeeeeeve it   Grin


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biff
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« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2015, 09:50:29 PM »

I am not so sure Desp,
              You never can be sure. HU is only repeating what a friend of mine said many years ago when the Russians landed on the moon. He laughed and laughed.. " Have you had a look at the kind of cars those Russians build", ? He would roar, "How in the name of be jemmedie could they build a rocket to get to the moon and back when they cannot build a car that can keep its exhaust intact for a week and sport a decent set of brakes.
  His Brother came home from England driving a Moscovitch saloon, pale blue and no brakes.. ( and gave him the car as a gift.)
 J said it was a rotten tax dodge and that they had this big film set inside an aircraft hanger all decked out with all kind of Sc-fi stuff and now the americans and the British and the Irish Governments were going to take part in the next race to the moon and double all the tax bills. J was in the dole all his life and had plenty of time for exciting theories. We all agreed because he could get quite aggressive and very insulting. Well what do you know ?..About a week or so afterwards, there was a film on the box about exactly the same scenario.,Yes,,and all taking place inside an aircraft hanger. The guys were bouncing about in space hanging from invisible ropes and doing all kinds of exciting stunts until they fell out over the lead woman..(she was nice)
 It is a bit like the story where the guy answers the add for a zoo keeper..He gets there and the boss tells him that the Gorilla died and he would have to wait until they got a new gorilla before he could start work,,,,,Unless of course he wanted a start right away, acting the part of the gorilla in a specially provided gorilla suit...After a little training in front of a mirror the guy gets up enough courage to venture into the gorilla cage and perform as a gorilla. It went really well and the boss said he was a natural. he could swing from branches and beat his chest , blow kiss,s at the ladied and give the kids sweets( He only did that once, the boss threatened to sack him), Every morning when the visitors came, this guy would scamper up the trees and behave like the most macho gorilla on the planet, So he is swinging about, getting careless and did he not fall down into the cage next door on top of the lion who was sprawled on the floor dozing... "Help,!, help! " he screamed.. but the lion grabbed him by the throat and hissed at him to " SHUT IT" " YOU WILL GET THE BOTH OF US THE SACK,!". (True story)
        J also had a big red beard down to his chest and he smoked a pipe as well and very often he would fall asleep in front of the fire, smoking the pipe and the pipe would slip out from between his dentures and fall into the middle of his beard. He kept a wet towel hanging on the back of the kitchen door specially for beard fires and when he put the fire out, he would smell to the high heavens and have a hole in the middle of his beard, a bit like the entrance to a birds nest.. If you shouted,, "Hey J,, your beard is on fire", He would throw up his jacket over his head and run into the house but you needed to lay low for a few weeks afterwards.
    I am not so sure that they actually got as far as the moon anyhow.. If you look and listen to all the other things that these politicians have told us, none of that is true either. Getting to the moon is a lot lot harder than reducing the income tax to the workers by 25% and they certainly have not managed to reduce the tax like they promised. J once won a ticket to an all Ireland final between Dublin and Kerry, Kerry won and J ended up in Kerry for a week, In Listowel of all places. I like Listowel and would have loved a week down there myself. They kept J for the week and sent him home looking well fed and full of more stories. He said that the Kerry men were very intelligent and that they were not fooled by this trip to the moon either and they came from all over Listowel to listen to J explain away the tax dodge and the trip to the moon till he was fed up repeating it. They took him to a faiery fort at closing time and explained how you had to walk very respectfully past the place or you would be cursed for all eternity but j fell over in the dark and that was when he decided he would be better off going home as soon as possible before the Faieries got on to him.
        I know, it a lot of mumbo jumbo but you can never be 100% sure and it is better to bet on the two sides, to be sure to be sure, if you know what I mean.
                                         Biff
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« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2015, 10:39:33 AM »

Never underestimate Russian technology. There is a wonderful expression my brother got from the building trade: "It may be strong, but it's rough". (I still laugh at that).
I still own one of my father's old cameras, a 1960's Zorki 4. It took excellent photographs in it's day, that my father processed and printed. Later on he bought a voigtlander and I was given the Zorki.
Having grown up in aerospace surroundings I got to see several Russian planes close-up. The interiors are like the inside of a brickie's transist, the mechanical stuff outside has got lots of bits riveted on that look as though they may fall off at any time. They may be rough, but they are strong. Function over form is the way of things and function they certainly can. I flew in a Tupolev 134 & 154, (thankfully never the 144), they were noisy and uncomfortable but the pilots were mostly ex air force and although initially frightening in operation were remarkable smooth fliers. They have a cute little oval window that looks down at the front for the navigator! Some of the airports were a bit disconcerting where crashed planes were just pushed to the side of the runway and left there.
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biff
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« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2015, 11:25:45 AM »

I would never underestimate the Russian technology,
                                        They have a different way of looking at thing than we have. They valued their pilots a lot more than the west did and invented the injector seats so that their highly trained pilots could survive and fly again unlike other countries who had to mourn the deaths of many brilliant pilots before they finally wised up and followed suit.
 You can tell a lot about a people by their approach to engineering problems. You honestly don,t know who you are dealing with until you see what they build or construct and how they go about solving the problems which rear their heads in all fields of engineering. Then you see the force of the personality breaking through.
 When I worked in Germany, I was baffled by the way they went about building ordinary houses,,semis, and solitary expensive houses. Everything was so over engineered that the actual constructions were struggling to cope with the weight of the timbers and steel. That was how I saw it. Yet their roads were a marvel, Not great surfaces but very clever bridges and flyovers. Now that got my attention and I noted the differences between the UK method of suspending motorways and the German way of doing it. The UK road engineers would suspend their roads on large H frames ,Two massive pillars and a cross piece for to carry the roads, The Germans would use one upright and one cross piece with the roads suspended on the crosspiece of the T, I drove over these flyovers over Cologne and was amazed to see that the cross pieces were guyed by massive wire ropes that ran down into someone back yard in the city below Grin. So by adjusting the guys they could bank the road for the high speed traffic. Now I thought that was one of the most brilliant ideas that I ever saw but if you were an engineer, you needed to have a strong nerve to back it and carry it out. So as the road curves and weaves above the city these massive guys are holding the whole lot under tension. If the single pillar that supports the roads sink a few mms then the guys can be adjusted to cope without a major engineering repair effort. I do not know any of the history or the engineers of these roads or even how successful they are but the engineers who thought it up were both bold and brave and not afraid to put their careers on the line, obviously. I ramble,,oops.
                                                            Biff
 
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« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2015, 08:17:36 PM »

Reported wartime comment of a German general: "the Soviets will never win this war, just look at the cr*p finish on [the castings of] that tank..."  except that they did win, partly because they didn't waste time or resources grinding and polishing the bits that didn't actually need it.

Another off-topic comment: How can the carbon footprint and NOx emissions of space exploration be charged to the culprits?  In particular I would like to see Virgin/Branson's leisure offering stopped dead, as it's a total waste of money and resources for the benefit of literally a small handful of people...
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