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Author Topic: 2nd hand EVs?  (Read 3546 times)
dan_b
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« on: July 23, 2015, 03:11:59 PM »

As I'm unlikely ever to be able to afford to buy a brand new car, and as I'm getting more keen on the idea of an EV, what's the market like for 2nd hand EVs?
I guess battery condition is one of the main issues? How would one tell?
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« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2015, 06:17:52 PM »

I've read mixed reviews. One side positive, the other side negative! But the most important thing is to haggle, as you really don't want to end up overcharged. (Sorry  Wink)

I'm actually also very interested, but can't see any way to justify a second car, as our mileage is quite low, but we use the biggish car (Zafira) a lot for shifting stuff. Plus Wifey does quite a few long hauls with some of the charities she helps/works for.

Have you read up on the Zoe? They did have a very good offer for new leases. Something like 99 down, then 80pm plus another 70pm for battery rental. After 2 years you could then just walk away rather than pay the rest.

I think that's the deal Andy WSM used quite recently, though with his EV being banged hard, he may not want to talk about it yet ..... sore subject?  Cry

Mart.

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biff
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« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2015, 07:13:31 PM »

Hi Dan,
  I have already joined the EV brigade,, Very proud I am. It has been sitting down basking in the sun beside the shed ever since I got it. It is the real deal and someday soon after Christmas I will stick some batteries in it.
 However, I am now up there with the rest of the EV gang ,,a genuine player in the renewable stakes. You just cannot believe the feeling it generated in my heart to know that if I bump into someone that has a large commercial turbine and a rake of solar panels and starts to " Did i tell you that we have a large Turbine and 10kw of solar panels"  then they go,, " We are considering getting an EV but we don,t really know a lot about them"..... Then it is my turn to twist the knife,, " Ahh EVs,!! We have one,,we don,t use it very much, Its the range you see ,, Handy for the local shops a few miles away,,But frankly old man, I prefer the Diesel." Then , before they get too inquisitive, I will scuttle off like a crab looking for a rock to hide under.
  Mind you Dan, I would sell it to a friend like yourself, If you were truly stuck or even sell you a share in it. garden. I AM ALL HEART..
  Martin used to say years ago, That the small diesels are impossible to beat and I hate to say this but I think he was right.
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spaces
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« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2015, 11:08:00 PM »

Dan, from what I have seen of mainstream EVs they seem to lose more money than I'd expect for such a cheap car to run and service. The usual conservative car-buying public distrusts any 'new' technology until their boring neighbours all have one. So a Leaf can be had very cheaply, for 8k-odd with 8k-odd on the speedometer. Which for a modern-ish 2012 car at main stealer prices isn't bad, unless you need to... well, you know!

Minicab companies are starting to use them, helped along by modern diesels which are overcomplex machines trying to match unrealistic EU tailpipe figures, and are finding that in regular use, even with fast charging, the batteries are lasting well. http://www.carscoops.com/2015/03/uk-taxi-company-claims-it-saves-over.html. Just be clear on whether the battery is leased or not - Renault have people by the short and curlies unless you go to Norway to buy one - and do the usual checks regarding accidents and finance.

I bet in six or seven years' time even averagely good second hand EVs are much more in demand, even with less financial subsidy - helped in no small part by the nightmare many conventional modern cars have grown into.
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phoooby
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« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2015, 12:18:19 AM »

Quote
what's the market like for 2nd hand EVs?

Good for buyers and less so if you bought one and changed your mind !.

I am a Leaf driver so can only comment on them really as I don't know too much about others.

There are lots of Leafs about which are fairly young (2-3 years old) and low mileage. If you can stretch, I would get a generation 2 version which has many improvements, most notable being, improved handbrake (not electric which can be expensive to repair), improved battery chemistry which has allowed one leaf to do over 100k miles without huge loss of battery capacity, and a heat pump which is much more efficient way of heating the car in winter.

Personally, I went for a PCP on a brand new car which cost me 2k deposit, 50 per month for the car and 109 per month battery rental. This is based on 2 years and 24k miles. I don't anticipate having to change tyres in that time, service at 18k miles is c. 100 so all in (except electric) is 25 pence per mile + 3-4pence per mile electric which you could reduce by using free public charging or if you have solar in the summer and can charge during the day. I was very much a buy a car cash type of person before this purchase as there is no point paying finance cost on top of depreciation costs but looking at the total cost of use, the figures worked for me. I can walk away without the worry of depreciation of a new technology which will be out of date in 2 years time and I get to drive a new car for minimal money in the mean time. Even a 45mpg diesel will cost 2905 to do 24k miles in fuel alone, let alone servicing and road tax, so it would have been a pretty basic car I would have ended up with had I stuck with liquid fuels. 

The main dealers seem to have quite a few ex demonstrator cars around with low miles for around the 14k mark which I am sure they will do on a PCP type basis. I am an EV fan but we are still early days with the tech so there will be many more ev's with longer range etc in 2 years time so residuals could take a hit again. It might be wise to stick with a "walk away" deal at the moment unless you can get a complete bargain and are prepared to run it into the ground.

Goes without saying, if you want a keeper make sure the battery is NOT on a lease as the cost of this relative to the value of the car will become increasingly onerous as the value of the car falls. Trying to sell a cheap (3-4k) car with a battery lease commitment will be a nightmare in years to come. As far as I am aware, it will be very difficult to get out of a battery lease agreement. Practically speaking, you should be able to drive to a dealer, get the battery removed and trailer away the car but I am not sure it will be that simple. These cars will be crashed and second hand battery's will become available but not sure it will be easy to fit one of those cheaply; possibly not a DIY in the garage job with 350v DC connection to make.

Also worth blagging a test drive from a main dealer to try one out. I think Nissan do a 3-4 day loan of the car so you can see if it will fit your lifestyle etc. They are a hoot to drive, smooth, quiet, quick of the traffic lights with instant torque. All that before you consider the local pollution, cheaper running costs, co2, noise pollution benefits. I cannot understand why the 5-10 million (my guess) 2 car households in the UK are not having an ev as the second car.
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« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2015, 06:41:49 AM »

Nice summary's Spaces and Phooboy,

with my excess energy production I'm seriously looking at one. How many kWh does a Leaf require to charge after say a very hilly 22 mile round trip. I think my driving profile (and my wife's) suit one amicably. Basically 90% of our 12k PA is 22 mile round trips on a single track road with no other traffic.

Cheers, Paul
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« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2015, 09:03:43 AM »

When EVs first became obtainable or mass produced in decent quantities,
                                                          I would have been a customer, had I had the ready dosh. Time wore on and I learned more about myself and what use I would make of such a car. At one time I was very much in favour of Charging directly off our PV and wind turbine. I could have managed that like I will be doing with the Chinese copy that I aquired a few months back but the problem is that Out here in the boondocks they do not cater for EVs in the towns or have very many charging points so I would be dependent 100% on what I generate myself and that would depend 100% on the weather, So My trips to the city would depend on the weather forecast. Bearing in mind that I only do approx 5,000 miles on my Suzuki these past few years, so unless someone handed me an EV as a gift, I doubt if I would be inclined to change the system that we have. At the moment we dump all our excess energy into tanks which keep the house warm at night, even the new stove which sits well out on the floor gets warm around 3pm.
  It would make more sense for me to buy an EV and use it to store the energy from our energy system, Just park it near the control house, like I did with the battery forklifts. I am sure I could figure out some way to reconfigure the Pack down to 120vdc without disabling it completely. That would be the way forward for me. At the moment the Suzuki does a nice 40 to the gallon and is very dependable and comfortable. It will never depend on the weather,should it snow or freeze and that in itself is worth the extra tax,that I pay to keep it on the road.
  If I lived near the City and had a 9 to 5 job in which I travelled 30 miles to and 30 miles back,then the EV would certainly be worth considering as long as I could plumb it into my own energy generating system.
 I remember back in the early days, There was one bright spark who had adapted his to charge of two 5,000va smart ups,s. however, knowing what i know now about the charging capacity of the Smart ups,s, I doubt if he would have gone a mile or two up the road after a days charging of them.
  The real EVs are still to come. They will be light and futuristic, plastic and bubble wrap with big batteries, powerful acceleration and a minimum of a 300 mile charge . They are still designing EVs to look like ordinary cars. They need to design them to make the best of the battery and in event of a crash the passenger capsule could detach from the battery or vice versa.
                 I need to go and feed our new cats,
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phoooby
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« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2015, 09:57:11 AM »

Quote
How many kWh does a Leaf require to charge after say a very hilly 22 mile round trip.

I get about 4 and a bit miles per Kwh on fairly level routes so I would say about 3 miles per Kwh on hilly stuff.

Your round trip would use about 7.5 Kwh, allowing for 10% charging inefficiencies = 8.25 Kwh
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« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2015, 10:15:49 AM »

Yeh, keep it simple Biff. Could you convert a vardo to electric drive? Lots of space inside for the batteries AND the horse in case you run out of juice.
Stan
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« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2015, 01:58:51 PM »

The 2 days I had the BMW i3 on rental I got 5 miles/kWh over 69 miles at an average speed of 20mph.

I had a look at finance for a new i3 but it's just too much, and there are hardly any 2nd hand yet.
What other cars are there that might be a good option?  I see the Ampera is now discontinued, but what are they like?
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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2015, 09:51:52 PM »

Nearly missed that Stan,
                 Yes the Vardo would be just the thing for me, Don,t know why I never thought of it before but there you are. We could even go around and collect a few more batteries, a copper tank or two and maybe have a nice little Yang-Shen tacked onto the back of it. To be honest, I thought the Vardo was something like the Tardus. ( Save a horse, ride a Tardus).
                                                              Biff
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