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Author Topic: UPS and Growatt SP2000 unit  (Read 17786 times)
glyndwr1998
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« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2015, 10:44:12 AM »

The beauty of the leaf cells is that if a cell failed, there I'll be plenty of leafs around in the future to replace a whole pack or weak individual cells as there will be more and more leafs appearing in the breakers yards
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7.5kw solar pv
Prius plug in hybrid conversion by myself (now reverted back to standard prius)
Nissan e-NV200 wheelchair converted vehicle
glyndwr1998
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« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2015, 10:48:24 AM »

Hi bookworm,

What would be your ideal system, the growatt battery modules connected to your own ups or a complete growatt system?
The growatt battery module is 100ah @48v, around 5kwh, maybe 4kwh useable, and a max discharge rate of 2kw,
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Nissan e-NV200 wheelchair converted vehicle
book_woorm
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« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2015, 01:33:10 PM »

Hi Anthony,
          I see what you mean I also found this http://midsummerwholesale.co.uk/pdfs/sp2000-growatt-battery-installation-guide.pdf. It certainly looks more like Lithium cobalt. but maybe that is more than one battery! being sold this sheet is for the EIA02-002 whereas the ones you see advertised including on 'midsummer wholesale' are GBLI 5001. More questions to ask.
          Just looked back at your other threads and comments from others about change over switches, Something I need to add to my overall schematic.
          An idle power consumption of 64 watts for a 6000VA UPS does not sound too bad. Did you re do your basic trial yet to find out how much the fan heater was actually absorbing when you were putting in 2168watts?
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2.4 Kw Kyocera Panels (west facing) Feronius inverter; Sonenkraft Solar Thermal with Twin 180Lt & 280 Lt Thermal Stores; SAP 'A' rated property with UFH & wood burner. Full weather compensation on the UFH buffer temperature & differential controller decides where the heat from the wood burner goes.
glyndwr1998
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« Reply #48 on: November 22, 2015, 04:05:48 PM »

I'd want to know all about the growatt and batteries etc before making a commitment to purchase.mi would have thought if a fault occurs with such a system it s a service engineer call out repair, and won't be able to alter cell parameters etc to reduce depth of discharge etc for your own running parameters etc....

There are many advantages of a plug and play install, but a hefty price is to be paid for the privilege.

At least with a home design, there is the time and effort to design, build and install, but then you have a full understanding of its function and how to repair if a failure occurs.

I would be very interested in duplicating your designs and cut off methods in my own install if that's ok. It's good to have an electronics guy on board as its a very weak point of mine personally.

As far as the socomec sicom 6kva is concerned, the power consumed was 1990 watts with the ups and heater running, with a power factor of 0.99.
This was measured with a plug in type energy meter, not sure how accurate it is but its ok as a reference. As far as the idle running is, well, it's a case of having to put up with that side of things, everything is going to consume precious watts, and if your exporting those watts, better to capture them in our own batteries and suffer the inefficiencies of the systems.
I'd rather this route than maybe 10,000 for a manufactured plug and play system. 10,000 I definately don't have, time and effort I have in abundance, I care full time for my disabled 18 year old son who has cerebral palsy from birth, so these type of things keep my mind occupied and off the daily stresses of caring and worrying for our son.

I hope between us we can build a system that's efficient, effective, useable and above all cost effective. I'll help all I can with batteries and the experience I have had in running them in the Prius for over 2 years, 6 months on the leaf cells.

Anthony.
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Nissan e-NV200 wheelchair converted vehicle
book_woorm
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« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2015, 06:05:58 PM »

Hi Anthony,
         The reason I looked at Victron, SMA, Nednap Samsung and now Growatt is because these systems natively divert what you would have exported to the grid into a battery. People like Shuco are so expensive you wonder if they will ever sell any kit. There are now some cheaper Chinese offerings out there now but when you look closely their DC connection is a bit of plastic 30 amp chocolate block and that is going to melt at the powers they claim. They also claim to work with all sorts of Battery chemistries but you cant find the details of how they are set up or work.

         Of the more robust Only SMA Sunny Island throttles back the main Sunny Boy PV inverter to charge the battery and minimise export. They only work with Lead Acid. I would have to throw the existing inverters out.

         Victron have a couple of incarnations and I seen their kit in the marine environment it used to only work with Lead Acid. It is primarily designed to boost a poor shore supply when you tie up in a marina but has been re programmed to do the sort of thing we are looking for, however, they have produced a bit of kit that uses Lithium but the battery is rather small. I would have to throw the existing inverters out.

         Nednap's first offering had a software glitch and the only way you can get info from the unit is to let it send gen to their website and then you get it back again which is no good if your broadband goes down. It isn't a backup supply either. I would have to throw the existing inverters out.

         Samsung's offering is pricey and like Shuco I haven't looked to much. I would have to throw the existing inverters out.

         As you say Growatt is part of Benq who look to be a fairly stable company. The unit claims to be able to use both Lithium and Lead batteries and can be retro fitted to an existing system. It works by stripping the DC from the PV until the battery is fully charged then sending the rest to the inverter. If you don't consume all this then the balance is exported. If there isn't enough power coming from the PV then it outputs the battery to the inverter up to the point of zero export or battery depletion. You can buy the unit without the battery which is one of the reasons I'm interested in it and Leaf batteries. There are a couple of variants in the pipe line SP1000 and SP3000. Hence I'm asking them a lot of questions.

         A reason to go for manufactured kit is my age, now I might have 30 years left but who knows and my other half can't cope with the inherent time delay we get on the thermo actuated valves on the UFH ( but she does understand the need to keep the place up to temperature because of the thermal time lag of warming the concrete in the floor up). Just have a thought for who would sort out a problem in your system to keep the lights on for your son if you were seriously ill? Sorry I don't know how bad his condition is. In my old company my accountant had CP and his official way out of the building in the event of a fire was to abseil 40m down the middle of the stairwell - we kept a spare wheel chair at the bottom for him.

         Enough about my reasoning for where I'm going the diagram should tell you a lot more when I finish it and post it.

         Feel free to use the MOFET idea you need to know the peak Source to Drain voltage it has to sustain including any nasty noise spikes and the max surge current it would have to put up with. No use just saying its a 48v system and 100 amps at 6KVA output your charging up to nearer 60v and the spike can be double that. What is the current going to be with a low battery and the surge current to start a 1HP motor at that point well 6KVA when the battery is down to 42volts is 143 amps and a 1Hp motor is 750w with a x7 surge for a few cycles which is another 5250 watts so you would be looking for a MOSFET that can sustain 70V and 150 amp AND a surge of 120v 300amp. There is a reasonable tutorial here https://www.fairchildsemi.com.cn/Assets/zSystem/documents/collateral/onlineSeminars/Understanding-Modern-Power-MOSFETs-PPT.pdf. and mouser have a simple filter list to chose the device you want http://www.mouser.co.uk/Semiconductors/Discrete-Semiconductors/Transistors/MOSFET/_/N-ax1sf?gclid=CMjb5piqnMkCFVW7Gwod8r0CeQ

         I didn't realise until recently that the native BMS on the Leaf pack was split into two with an optocoupler in the middle as well as in and out see http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=17470 could you use it as is when you get to your 10KVA UPS?
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2.4 Kw Kyocera Panels (west facing) Feronius inverter; Sonenkraft Solar Thermal with Twin 180Lt & 280 Lt Thermal Stores; SAP 'A' rated property with UFH & wood burner. Full weather compensation on the UFH buffer temperature & differential controller decides where the heat from the wood burner goes.
glyndwr1998
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« Reply #50 on: November 22, 2015, 07:03:12 PM »

I just browsed the miss leaf bms hack, it's amazing what poeple can do.

I do have the bms here, I utilised some of the power cables in the Prius build but the bms and harness I still have.

It would be very good to learn that if the leaf could be broken into 2 parts, both with 24 cells and 200v would be a good voltage for the 10kva apc ups that I have. It's the big black box you can just see sitting on top of the 6kva iOS in the pic I posted.
Thanks for finding that info, no doubt that thread will expand over the months to a microcontrol master communicating with the can signals and getting charger controls, ah count etc... Link up to a 7" tablet with the elm327 and got a visual display too of the battery in real time. One for the wish list for sure.
On a personal level, my son has quadriplegia cerebral palsy, means all his limbs are affected, he has only just started talking a very basic language with single words, no sentences, he is wheelchair bound, can't feed himself... Etc.. I suppose you can imagine the level of care and input he requires daily.
He has gat a through floor lift to his bedroom, so a back up power supply will prove invaluable in the event of an outage to continue to use the lift to get him into bed etc..... The more I think about it, the more I'm leaning to wards a bigger battery myself now.
Thanks again for your help, I'm sure you and I will find a good working solution for our needs, with their and assistance I'm sure we can progress to a fully working system fit for purpose.

Anthony
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7.5kw solar pv
Prius plug in hybrid conversion by myself (now reverted back to standard prius)
Nissan e-NV200 wheelchair converted vehicle
glyndwr1998
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« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2015, 09:46:35 AM »

Hi bookworm,

I'm in the same situation really, I have 2 Sma inverters that are connected and working with my 7.5kw grid tie kit, and don't want to loose them.
I installed a system for my brother before the summer to divert all otherwise exported energy, it's called the mk2pvrouter by robin emley, it is based on an arduino so can be programmed to do exactly what you want it to. I will need one soon when my meter gets changed but don't need one yet...... If you know what I mean.

When I do get one (as they are very very good units) I'd set it up as so,

If exported energy less than 750 watts, divert to the immersion heater,
If exported energy more than 750 watts, open up output 2 and divert to battery store via meanwell power supply, and excess beyond 750 watts gets exported to the heat store via output 1.
Both ouptuts are triac outputs and fully proportional.
They are very programmable if you know arduino, can add more output as required. I definately will be getting one. If interested pm me on it, as i can give you details vial pm.

My other son, who is a twin to his brother who has the cp, he's ok thankfully and has just started an apprenticeship with Arqiva as a broadcast ans electronics engineer, servicing, maintaining the TV and emergency services broadcasts, he has been with me on these projects so he could manage them in the future.
For sure his education through the apprenticeship especially in the electronics side will help me in the future.

Anthony.

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7.5kw solar pv
Prius plug in hybrid conversion by myself (now reverted back to standard prius)
Nissan e-NV200 wheelchair converted vehicle
book_woorm
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« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2015, 01:59:21 PM »

Hi Anthony,
          Is the meanwell PSU/charger happy getting its supply from a burst firing diverter like the Mk2router? Whilst your system chokes off what might go to the grid, to use that power at some other time you have to manually change over. Also I don't see how you can boost the output of the PV inverter to minimise import when the weather is dull. The Growatt is supposed to do both.

          I've finally got my system diagram together, It probably needs a couple more isolators when I've had time to think about FMEA and I'm pretty sure I'll put in some plug and socket connections as well.


          The things requiring unbroken power are connected to the 2nd consumer unit which normally gets its supply hard wired through the UPS. The double pole RCBO's in the main consumer unit and the manual changeover switch are there to make sure you can still feed those circuits on the 2nd consumer unit if any thing in the UPS/PV side gives up. I still need to enable a remote shutdown of the UPS on low battery. I've found a chip that will drive a MOSFET isolator http://www.linear.com/product/LTC4359, which will also stop the native charger in the UPS interffearing with the Li battery. If I can get a battery warning signal out of the Growatt then good if not then I'll need another voltage monitoring circuit across the battery. I might just have one anyway as there is still the potential of excess generation going to the grid. It would give an inhibit input into a Mk2 router so that it does not turn on while the battery is still charging. I could then heat some towel rails electrically in the summer rather than flashing up the gas boiler.

           I like this design because it  takes power you would other wise export and uses it to either boost the PV output for a net zero import and it is extendable. If you have a second set of panels facing a different direction, which is something else I'm after if the planers allow, then you just need another Growatt, battery and reverse feed protection circuit. Once its set up you can leave it to its own devices.

* BackupSchematic-Layout1.pdf (6.94 KB - downloaded 66 times.)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 02:02:57 PM by book_woorm » Logged

2.4 Kw Kyocera Panels (west facing) Feronius inverter; Sonenkraft Solar Thermal with Twin 180Lt & 280 Lt Thermal Stores; SAP 'A' rated property with UFH & wood burner. Full weather compensation on the UFH buffer temperature & differential controller decides where the heat from the wood burner goes.
glyndwr1998
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« Reply #53 on: November 24, 2015, 07:47:24 PM »

Hi bookworm,

Lovely diagram that is.

May I ask what the function of the growatt is.
I ask as it won't work in my situation, in that, if the solar pv is directed to the growatt, and some power goes into the batteries and some into the grid tie inverter, that's great, however, my grid tie inverter has an energy meter  on the AC output side that clocks up the generation units, if some of that power is put into the battery directly of the solar pv, then that will reduce the quantity of feed it tarrif payment.
Maybe you are not considering a fit payment, if you are then how do you get that pewer that has been put into the battery recorded as a kWh for payment purposes, as some will inevitably be taken np by the ups on dark nights without registering it throughout the energy meter for fit purposes.

The meanwell psu should be ok functioning on and off repeatedly, but I have got 7.5kw of solar with another 3 kW too soon hopefully, so should be well over 750 watts most of the time from March onwards.
I suppose the system could run like this perhaps,
Leave the ups on and ready to provide energy from the battery, all the time, when the solar pv is providing less energy that demand, the ups steps in and takes up the additional requirements, and more will get diverted back to the ups via the pv router, and so on etc, not very efficient I know but it could be done.
I see it thought as a night time provision with a manual switch over, yes it's primitive but until such a time this hybrid kit becomes affordable, it'll have to do, there is no doubt in time I will for sure have a system that will be fully automatic in the future, but prices will have to fall considerably first. The early adopters always get stung, maybe in 3 or 4 years time this equipment will be freely available at reasonable prices.
Anthony.
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Nissan e-NV200 wheelchair converted vehicle
book_woorm
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« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2015, 09:00:02 AM »

Hi Anthony,
      Yours is a common misconception about the Growatt SP2000. When the output from the PV is low or non existent, it boosts the input to the solar inverter from the battery (assuming there is capacity left in the Battery) up to the point where export/import is zero or the max rating of the inverter is reached. So if I don't have a mains failure then everything from the panels goes through the Generation meter eventually. There are naturally some losses but as my panels are bigger than my inverter I will still get more out than I do currently. Anyway with FITs falling through the floor you are only sensibly going to get paid for what you export so it is better to give up the 5p/ unit exported and use it yourself rather than buying at 15p/unit.

      Now conventionally when the mains fail you inverter stops and you are loosing those units that the PV would have generated. The only generation units I loose are those the UPS steals from the battery when the mains fails and the UPS inverter fires up, but I don't lose those units that the PV produces during a mains failure because the solar inverter will re sync to the UPS then depending on the load on the 2nd consumer unit either
a) there will be enough solar power to top up the battery and power the house with the UPS just providing the 50Hz sync, that output gets metered.
b) there isn't enough sun and the Growatt boosts the Solar inverter, that gets metered too.
c) its dark the and the UPS steps into the breach. That bit of power I loose.

      Under Mains failed condition to get the solar inverter to take the lions share of the load and the UPS to only provide the sync signal I will have to set the output of the UPS down to 220 volts. Like that the natural behaviour of the Solar inverter will go to a higher voltage because it is designed to push power into the grid and it will provide more power than the UPS. That is a balancing act that will require some experimentation at different loads.

      The only way of getting all the possible units through the generation meter is to have a separate battery for the UPS which is charged from the AC side of the supplies not the DC.
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2.4 Kw Kyocera Panels (west facing) Feronius inverter; Sonenkraft Solar Thermal with Twin 180Lt & 280 Lt Thermal Stores; SAP 'A' rated property with UFH & wood burner. Full weather compensation on the UFH buffer temperature & differential controller decides where the heat from the wood burner goes.
glyndwr1998
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« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2015, 02:16:05 PM »

      The only way of getting all the possible units through the generation meter is to have a separate battery for the UPS which is charged from the AC side of the supplies not the DC.

I'm sure some could do similar, charge the battery from mains at 15p and clock up the gen meter and sell it back at 48p if on the original tarriff. Not that I would do such a thing of course.
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Sprinter
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« Reply #56 on: November 25, 2015, 03:10:04 PM »

When i originally toyed with the idea of the Growatt i though that i read that the max battery size was 100AH for Lithiums and 150 for lead based batteries, but you guys seem to be talking about putting a great deal more batteries behind the P2000 unit.

Have i missed something or is the recommended 100 150 AH battery systems just that, a recommendation rather than a maximum capacity?
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glyndwr1998
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« Reply #57 on: November 25, 2015, 04:53:20 PM »

Hi sprinter,

Bookworm is going down the growatt route, I'm not fully conversant with the specs, I know bookworm has been in contact regularly ironing out the spec details with them.

I'm purely going down the battery and ups route until this equipment becomes more affordable for me at least.
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Nissan e-NV200 wheelchair converted vehicle
book_woorm
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« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2015, 05:49:45 PM »

        As far as I can make out the Growatt SP2000 is limited to a 2000watt charge/discharge rate so that is 40 odd amps. A bigger battery will just take longer to charge. They only offer any warranty with their own battery.
        I've got an hour by hour spreadsheet  with actual solar input and house usage for the last 5 years and if I could have had one of these units 5 years ago I would never have hit that limit. I've also made a variant of what the input would have been if I had 4KWp of panels and that only hits the limit for a couple of hours. There are admittedly a number of times each summer where I would be exporting because the battery was full and this gets worse with more panels. You would need something in the order of 2MWHr battery to be in a position where you don't export anything and even that battery would only be fully charged 21% of the time and fully discharged 22% of the time. With a 4KWp PV two Growatts SP2000's and a full reconfigured leaf battery I would be at full charge 20% of the time and full (80%DOD) discharge 27% of the time.
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2.4 Kw Kyocera Panels (west facing) Feronius inverter; Sonenkraft Solar Thermal with Twin 180Lt & 280 Lt Thermal Stores; SAP 'A' rated property with UFH & wood burner. Full weather compensation on the UFH buffer temperature & differential controller decides where the heat from the wood burner goes.
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« Reply #59 on: November 25, 2015, 06:01:25 PM »

I've just got some more answers there is going to be as SP1000 available in January for the 1800 mark including battery (not sure if this is the Wholesale price ex VAT). It's a down rated SP2000 with the same battery??? That throttles the charge /discharge to 20 odd amps. It makes me a bit suspicious as the wholesale price for the battery on its own is currently 1700. I wonder what has being giving them trouble? There is also an SP3000 on test at the moment which is supposed to be released Q3/4 next year.

The BMS is said to be a monitoring system not a management system tough they still haven't answered the $64,000 question about shunt resistors.
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2.4 Kw Kyocera Panels (west facing) Feronius inverter; Sonenkraft Solar Thermal with Twin 180Lt & 280 Lt Thermal Stores; SAP 'A' rated property with UFH & wood burner. Full weather compensation on the UFH buffer temperature & differential controller decides where the heat from the wood burner goes.
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