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Author Topic: UPS and Growatt SP2000 unit  (Read 17985 times)
glyndwr1998
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« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2015, 05:21:45 PM »

Hi bookworm,

Re the cell logger devices, I am sorry I made a slight error in my description,

To clear things up, I have 7 leaf cells and as they are parallel and series makes actually 14 cells, and 2 cell loggers monitor the 14 cells per pack, so in total for me I have 4 cell loggers in total, 2 on one pack and 2 on the other, if that makes sense. On each pack cell logger 1 has all 8 cells monitored, cell logger 2 monitors the remaining 6 cells making all 14 cells covered.
Same on pack 2.
Sorry for the confusion.

Made a start today, bought a wooden base to mount the equipment on, and planned the cable run and equipment positions. A few other things cropped up with th wfamily to had to down tools. Won't have time tomorrow to do anything at al so back to it on Thursday now.

Hi Roy's, thanks for the kind offer of the power supply, I think I have everything I need now, I have ordered a meanwell power supply for the relays, that'll be here soon. Thanks for the offer anyway, much appreciated.

Thanks to all your interest with this, it's a damn shame the Oem stuff is really expensive, wouldn't have to mess around with all this otherwise. I havent really noticed the lifepo4 prices come down in price either lately, a 24kwh pack in lifepo4 at current prices would cost nigh on 6000 plus vat. Ouch.....

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7.5kw solar pv
Prius plug in hybrid conversion by myself (now reverted back to standard prius)
Nissan e-NV200 wheelchair converted vehicle
book_woorm
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« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2015, 09:44:46 AM »

Indra had some Synopoly 100AHr LiFePO4 cells on fleabay the other day for 105 each so I think even your 6K is a bit shy.
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2.4 Kw Kyocera Panels (west facing) Feronius inverter; Sonenkraft Solar Thermal with Twin 180Lt & 280 Lt Thermal Stores; SAP 'A' rated property with UFH & wood burner. Full weather compensation on the UFH buffer temperature & differential controller decides where the heat from the wood burner goes.
glyndwr1998
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« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2015, 12:26:36 PM »

Indra had some Synopoly 100AHr LiFePO4 cells on fleabay the other day for 105 each so I think even your 6K is a bit shy.

Agreed, it was a very conservative estimate, and indra are the cheapest oitlet I have seen for lifepo4, prob another 20% at least on top of that plus the vat on top of that, with that a leaf pack at 3k is very very good value that is if you could get hold of one.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 12:28:58 PM by glyndwr1998 » Logged

7.5kw solar pv
Prius plug in hybrid conversion by myself (now reverted back to standard prius)
Nissan e-NV200 wheelchair converted vehicle
book_woorm
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« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2015, 10:21:29 AM »

Hi Antony, Just a thought in the set up your putting together which side of your battery are you connecting to earth or are you expecting the UPS to do that for you? From the circuit diagrams I've seen in a conventional UPS with its proprietary batteries & battery boxes the earth is both in the inverter and in the battery box.
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2.4 Kw Kyocera Panels (west facing) Feronius inverter; Sonenkraft Solar Thermal with Twin 180Lt & 280 Lt Thermal Stores; SAP 'A' rated property with UFH & wood burner. Full weather compensation on the UFH buffer temperature & differential controller decides where the heat from the wood burner goes.
glyndwr1998
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« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2015, 04:26:03 PM »

Excellent question, hadn't really considered the earthing.. Oops.

The additional battery box that came with the socomec ups had no additional points of connection for earth or anything else, so I'd assume the earthing is acheived through the ups, and all I have done is disconnect the original battery connections x 4 and connect my batteries to the original connections, ensuring the protection of the original battery circuit could be utilised.
Any suggestions, I'd rather be super sure and safe than wing it.

Thanks very much for the help.

As a progress, I've now completed the wiring off the battery to the battery box via the current shunt and DC circuit breakers, tested the voltage / current programmable meter, all is working ok, on a  2 kW load on the ups the voltage was showing 55.6v and the current was 39 amps, checked with my multimeter and DC clamp meter, readings were nigh on the same, so very pleased with that.
I'll continue with the 12v control circuit over the weekend, it won't take long to do its just getting the time to get into the shed, family pecking away at my time at the moment.....

Anthony.

Hi Antony, Just a thought in the set up your putting together which side of your battery are you connecting to earth or are you expecting the UPS to do that for you? From the circuit diagrams I've seen in a conventional UPS with its proprietary batteries & battery boxes the earth is both in the inverter and in the battery box.
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Prius plug in hybrid conversion by myself (now reverted back to standard prius)
Nissan e-NV200 wheelchair converted vehicle
book_woorm
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« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2015, 07:58:51 PM »

Hi Antony,
       So step one is successful. Doing the quick sum Output/DC volts x Amps your getting a 92% efficiency from the UPS I would have thought it should be a bit better than that. You are throwing away 168 watts some where. I presume that you are using an electric heater as the load for testing. Can you measure the AC Amps & volts at the same time? If its a fan heater the motor driving the fan will have a reactive component giving a power factor of less than one which will knock the efficiency back. Use a pure resistive load if you can in the first instance.
       When my mate tested his water wheel system a few decades ago we rounded up all the electric fires in the village as a test load and were surprised to discover how inductive all those old coiled electric heater filaments in there ceramic holders actually were! If you've ever done professional load testing on generators of 100's KVA upwards you will have heard that the load banks that you can hire from the likes of 'TestBank' have specially wound non-inductive resistors to make up the load.
       If you are going to run motors in fridges heating systems etc you will also need to do your tests with those inductive loads, VA is not watts as you know anyway. Florecent lights have a leading PF and switching power supplies throw god knows what up in the way of harmonics. If your interested there is a method shown in my Fowlers pocket book that lets you work out the phase angle/power but it needs 3 volt meters and known non inductive high power resistor in series with the load. 
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2.4 Kw Kyocera Panels (west facing) Feronius inverter; Sonenkraft Solar Thermal with Twin 180Lt & 280 Lt Thermal Stores; SAP 'A' rated property with UFH & wood burner. Full weather compensation on the UFH buffer temperature & differential controller decides where the heat from the wood burner goes.
glyndwr1998
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« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2015, 08:21:39 PM »

Hi bookworm,

The load was a 2kw fan heater, I'll try to ripen a test on it tomorrow to see what it is actually consuming when powered up.

To be honest and probably being abit naive, and being mechanically biased not electrically, I haven't considered the effects of different equipment on the pf or harmonics. I did intend using a switch mode power supply to run the 12v supply for the 12v cut off relays and control circuit. Does that have a bad detrimental effect of the condition of the supply?
I'm open to any suggestions you may have?
I'll take a photo tomorrow to show you what I have and where I have got to at the moment.

Thanks again.
Anthony.
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Prius plug in hybrid conversion by myself (now reverted back to standard prius)
Nissan e-NV200 wheelchair converted vehicle
book_woorm
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« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2015, 09:04:32 AM »

Hi Antony,
        A couple of other things I forgot to mention:-
           The UPS will take some power even running on no load, so what V and A are going into the unit when its running without an AC load. This is an overhead you just have to put up with.
           The other is what is the output voltage and what is the rated voltage of your heater? I seem to remember that you were talking about a 10KVA UPS which would be significantly under run a 2KW so could well have a slightly high output voltage especially as it has a higher DC input.  If the heater is rated 2KW at 230v and your UPS is putting out 235v then the chances are that the heater is throwing out 2087watts (P = volts squared/ resistance) so you are losing something less than 100 watts which will be a mix of the Power Factor and the standing current needed to make the inverter work any way.
         I would not worry about switching mode power supplies too much unless you have other problems after all that's what all computers use
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2.4 Kw Kyocera Panels (west facing) Feronius inverter; Sonenkraft Solar Thermal with Twin 180Lt & 280 Lt Thermal Stores; SAP 'A' rated property with UFH & wood burner. Full weather compensation on the UFH buffer temperature & differential controller decides where the heat from the wood burner goes.
glyndwr1998
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« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2015, 02:28:49 PM »

Hi again,

checked the power taken by the socomec sicom 6kva ups while idling is 64 watts. Ive taken a 2 pics with where i am at the moment, should be with this post.

Do you think its worth starting my own thread with this set up rather that hijack your original, what do you think?

In the photos you will the the socomec ups and additional battery box, the leaf batteries with meanwell power supply, on the top of the batteries is the base where the wiring will be located, you will see the 125v dc 63 amp circuit breakers, one breaker per battery bank, the current shunt,  the programmable volt / curent meter, and cell loggers with cell voltages displayed. Plus the breadboard with the 4N35 opto isolators in readiness for the cell logger alarm outputs circuits.

The battery wiring is done in 60 amp auto grade multi strand flexi cable, very similar to the original battery cabling that is inside the ups battery box. I have looped some of the cables due to excess length, doesnt look too tidy, but read from the net that ideally all the cables have to be the same length to ensure the same loadings are applied to each battery that is connected in parallel.

The cables from the current shunt and dc breakers attach to the rear of the ups battery box via 75 amp anderson connectors.

It is what it is at the moment, what are your thoughts.

Just for info, ive also attached a pic of a 16kwh leaf battery in the back of my prius plug in conversion.

2 of the 3 pics wont load, they are too big, only 750kb though, any ideas


* ups battery 1.jpg (301.5 KB, 2048x1152 - viewed 507 times.)
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7.5kw solar pv
Prius plug in hybrid conversion by myself (now reverted back to standard prius)
Nissan e-NV200 wheelchair converted vehicle
glyndwr1998
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« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2015, 04:11:52 PM »

ok, after much reading .....lol..... found a resize app fr win10, so have now resized the other 2 photos for the forum use.

thanks


* leaf battery in prius.jpg (222.98 KB, 1024x576 - viewed 539 times.)

* ups battery 2.jpg (156.35 KB, 1024x576 - viewed 512 times.)
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7.5kw solar pv
Prius plug in hybrid conversion by myself (now reverted back to standard prius)
Nissan e-NV200 wheelchair converted vehicle
book_woorm
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« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2015, 04:59:55 PM »

Hi OK so it looks like a lab workbench experiment at the moment. I suggest that you get some small cable tray (http://www.discount-electrical.com/cables-management-c1/metal-cable-management-c14/metal-cable-tray-c22/50mm-light-guage-cable-tray-3-metres-p1292/s1571?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=unitrunk-50mm-light-guage-cable-tray-3-metres-ld50t&utm_campaign=product%2Blisting%2Bads&gclid=COq8uY75ockCFUg8Gwod904ACQ ) and some nylon Tywraps and tidy the wiring up so its all anchored down. Don't use PVC square trunking with the clip on lids, it Burns and gives off toxic smoke. Remember that you are throwing a lot of amps around so those wires need air space around them. Keep the control wiring wall away from power cables and if they have to be near one another cross them at right angles to minimise any cross talk. this is often a cause of untraceable non repeatable faults. Also label each wire several times in its length it will save a lot of time tracing any faults you get.

Don't worry about the hijack we seem to be the only people going down this route your just a few steps in front. Several weeks in and I still don't have any detailed answers from Growatt or their agents. Either something is amiss or they are not to hot on customer relations. This is an interesting picture that I was sent on Face book the other day


* UsersVsDesign.jpg (103.35 KB, 640x640 - viewed 452 times.)
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2.4 Kw Kyocera Panels (west facing) Feronius inverter; Sonenkraft Solar Thermal with Twin 180Lt & 280 Lt Thermal Stores; SAP 'A' rated property with UFH & wood burner. Full weather compensation on the UFH buffer temperature & differential controller decides where the heat from the wood burner goes.
roys
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« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2015, 05:42:13 PM »

 Hi g-1998
Still following this thread with interest, well done to you and bookwoorm.

If I was to be a little critical, sorry, the crimping of your brown wires, they look like about 1.5mm, they should be in a red or blue crimp and get a set of ratchet crimpers.  Using the right crimps and crimpers can save a lot of pita intermittent faults further down the line.
For interest a general rule of thumb:
Red up to 1.5mm
Blue 1.5 to 2.5mm
Yellow above 2.5 to 6mm

If you want me to make you up a small selection pack of crimps and send you them just let me know.

Keep up the good work.
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glyndwr1998
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« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2015, 06:41:02 PM »

hi bookworm, love that picture, so true

For sure yes it is a workbench test project at the moment. I was going to use the automotive type split round conduit to protect the cables and looms, of course keeping the load and control looms apart. get it working and cycling correctly, with all control circuit in, working and set to the parameters.

Hi Roys,

i used those cables only to check that the shunt and programmable controller were working, they were leices of cable i had lying around with the crimps already on, so i used them to try, you are absolutely correct thoungh, and thanks for the kind offer of the terminal crimps, ill pop down to screwfix and pick up a pack of each. Thanks for the input.

I received news off a contact that i have with the strong possibility of another leaf pack in the next 2 weeks, from a 2013 model with 8000 miles covered, not sure if the cells inside are the gen1 or gen2 type, either way they are very good cells. Ive already had 2 packs off him, kept the one myself and sold the other on at modest margin to help with the purchase for me project equipment requirements.
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7.5kw solar pv
Prius plug in hybrid conversion by myself (now reverted back to standard prius)
Nissan e-NV200 wheelchair converted vehicle
book_woorm
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« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2015, 09:40:10 AM »

Hi Anthony,
     Well I've got some answers from Growatt. The good news is they use a Battery MONITORING System at the cell level on the battery to control the on/off of the charge/discharge, but the main diverter unit only works with Lead Acid or LiFePO4. So I guess it wont handle the extra volts needed for Lithium Cobalt. That's a pity, at 13p /WHr the Leaf battery is dammed good value. I don't want to invent a zero power to the grid put it in the battery system myself if I can help it.

      Growatt haven't yet answered about tapping off the battery to feed another inverter or how batteries are paralleled. That should not be a problem on the DC side but I don't see enough connectors available for the control/monitoring cables. I'll also need to pick up a low battery warning to shut down the secondary inverter.

      I've worked out how to stop a native UPS from trying to back charge the Li battery pack down the DC cables as though it was an SLA. A pchannel MOSFET a zener diode and resistor will act as a very low forward voltage diode so current can only flow from the Li pack to the UPS. An 1XTR170P10P would suit the volts/current I'm thinking of, and only waste about 0.9 watt compared to a power diode which would throw off nearly 80watts I'm looking at a few quids worth of components and a box which I will need for the fuse anyway this a lot simpler than trying to take the innards of the UPS apart.

      I just need to work out how to add a low voltage turn off to this incase the UPS I get does not have a 'remote off' input. There seem to be plenty of circuits ideas when you Google this sort of thing. I'm in the process of drawing up how I intend to put the bits together so the solar inverter still works and gives power to the property when the grid goes off with out infringing the G53 requirements. The feed through relay in the UPS is essential to this. I'll post the diagram when its tidy.


* p-ch-fet-circuit.png (10.46 KB, 923x776 - viewed 458 times.)
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2.4 Kw Kyocera Panels (west facing) Feronius inverter; Sonenkraft Solar Thermal with Twin 180Lt & 280 Lt Thermal Stores; SAP 'A' rated property with UFH & wood burner. Full weather compensation on the UFH buffer temperature & differential controller decides where the heat from the wood burner goes.
glyndwr1998
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« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2015, 10:41:11 AM »

That growatt unit uses a battery labelled a bpi swing 5300, a Boston power product, using google they won the contract to supply Darfon who is a subsidiary of benq who distribute the growatt system.
If you googled Boston power you will find reference to their partnership with benq, and the contract to supply the battery modules for the growatt product.
The battery discharge curve resembled that of a lithium cobalt cell rather than a lifepo4 cell, and it has a non voltage of 3.65v whereas a lifepo4 has a non voltage of 3.2v.
Have a Google, I would need to research the cells in full to have confidence that the product and manufacturer will still be around the honour any warranty period.
A lot of the Chinese cell manufacturers have disappeared leaving a lot of end users high and dry
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7.5kw solar pv
Prius plug in hybrid conversion by myself (now reverted back to standard prius)
Nissan e-NV200 wheelchair converted vehicle
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