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Author Topic: turkish pelton wheel/spoons: any good?  (Read 10112 times)
Rocky
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« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2016, 10:32:14 PM »

It looks like you have a good idea of where you are going with it, its all good fun isn't it. I ended up using a Mastervolt windmaster and have a simple voltage controllable relay to divert to a dump load, prior to the rectifier, consisting of three cooker ring elements, one to each phase coming from my home made Hugh Pigot type PMG, should the voltage ever get near the max 150 DC for the inverter. This is only likely to happen in a power cut or other reason for the inverter being disconnected from its load. I have about 80V DC some way short of the 105V I was aiming at.
I have  a way to go before I get near the maximum potential I should be able to get from my 20m head and 5 l/s. I'm about half way towards my target of 500W getting 250W net output.  Happy with what I have so far and have at last got a decent intake filter to stop all the leaves and debris from blocking it up. Don't think my jets are aligned quite right so need to rethink that and I am probably also losing power where the 90mm penstock connects to the final 40mm pipes leading to the 2 12mm jets. So plenty to work on but for the moment its leaving my PV standing except when the joints in the penstock give way like yesterday, but its fixed up and running to its generating tone I have come to know and love!
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marcus
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« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2016, 12:07:13 AM »

Aye lot's of ideas - and lot's of fun - except going out in a screaming rainstorm to unblock it - I haven't yey sorted out a decent strainer and in this weather it's a constant problem. Do you use a coanda screen or a really big strainer or what?

I did look at a windmaster but my mpp is ~ 130-140v rms (at 350-400w at the generator) which is just too close for comfort. Curiously our systems have some similarities: ~20m head, 90mm penstock; in this weather I'm limited by the penstock, but I just couldn't justify the cost of the next size up; so far I've peaked at 405w at the house (435 at the generator) with three nozzles, 15, 12 & 12 mm. I should be getting that at the moment but I sort of threw it back together today and my back was giving me gyp so I didn't fine tune the nozzles and am getting only ~350w - but I'm not complaining  Smiley .
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camillitech
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« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2016, 07:29:34 AM »

Morning Marcus,

when I first did my system I used this method,



the tank is at an angle and the idea was that is would self clean. It sort of worked OK at the higher flows but after a couple of years I removed it.



Now the turbulence of the water exiting the inlet pipe seems to throw the debris over the edges.



For years I just used this old 3mm 'quarry screen' but have now swapped it for stainless as it rusted away.

I have three 250m penstocks at different heights feeding three different sized nozzles (pipe is free here). I just operate valve on each pipe to select the various nozzles depending on flow.

Good luck, Paul
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 08:49:08 AM by camillitech » Logged

http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
Rocky
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« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2016, 10:47:50 AM »

Marcus
You are getting the sort of power that I am aiming at from a similar water source. That's encouraging me so I know its achievable.
For the filter I started off with a length of soil drain pipe with hundreds of holes drilled in it placed behind a small natural dam. I had hoped the fine silt would pass through but what happened was that leaves got sucked down and blocked the holes and then the silt just filled up the small pond behind the dam. So I was having to clean it out every other day or so. I have now got a coanda screen placed over a plaster's bath with a small weir to feed the water on to it. That has been a great success washing all the leaves over the end. I haven't had to clear it in 6 weeks since I set it up. Downside is that coanda screen is but it may be possible to get an offcut if you are lucky. If I can master the technology I will post some pictures but that may take me a little while.
Right now I have to go and tend to another joint failure caused by the torrent of water and debris that came down the stream following last nights heavy rain. Must secure my pensock better because I'm getting very wet!
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Nickel2
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« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2016, 12:27:46 PM »

I've learned a new word today: 'Coanda'. (googles 'Coanda' and spends the next 1/2 hr reading and not doing stuff) - Cheers Rocky!
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1.140kW mono south-facing at 49*
EpEver 4210A at 24v
24V 400 Ah battery. (4x200Ah FLA)
EpEver STI1000-24-230 pure sine inverter
Of course it'll work. (It hasn't caught fire yet).
Rocky
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« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2016, 04:12:13 PM »

This is my coanda screen



What happens when you don't secure the penstock


Hoping a few rocks will hold it for the next deluge


The home made from slotted angle frame and PMG mounted on a trailer hub driven by the pelton wheel. The frame sits on rubber mountings.


Up and running water everywhere better with door shut




Inverter, rectifier box, dump load and control relay





This is first attempt at posting images, may have been a bit ambitious and could be a shambles. Tried preview but doesn't seem to show the images, just the urls.
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marcus
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« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2016, 06:28:04 PM »

Oooh, got screen envy!  Grin (I can see the pics fine)

Well I guess I could ask about offcuts but... And I guess if you need to ask the price you can't afford one. I have thought about making one but I can't think of a way to make the wires in the required shape. The only diy method I've thought of is something like a washing machine drum but with more open mesh, and pour the water on top and collect from inside - and when the debris collects it'll roll over - at least until the pile of debris gets big enough to stop it turning.

Currently I've got the pipe with holes method in use (blocked up last night just as I got into bed - 10mins later the rain stopped   banghead ).

Paul, presumably the tank slowly fills up with heavier stuff? I'm thinking you're more high head and low flow than me - I can't see that working here.

Well, I've got to do something - with my repaired pelton runner I daren't do the quick-restart method (clear the strainer and jump start the generator (if needed) and let the air go out the nozzles) as the air going through the nozzles creates a hydraulic ram effect which is a bit hard on the pelton spoons.
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camillitech
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« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2016, 07:24:10 PM »

Nice work Rocky,

Paul, presumably the tank slowly fills up with heavier stuff? I'm thinking you're more high head and low flow than me - I can't see that working here.

My supply is from a peaty little burn Marcus so nothing heavy gets carried down it I guess. Only empty it once a year and never seen more than a couple of bucket fulls of grit in it. Static head 40.7m and flow anything from a trickle to this.



90W to 900W depending on the nozzle. I could go higher but it's pointless really, as when the weather is that bad we've got so much energy from the wind turbine and Powerspout hydro turbine that I've nowhere to put it!!
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http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
marcus
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« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2016, 08:19:19 PM »

Ah, I see. Mine is more like Rockys (from his description), with silts, gravel and when it gets properly wet, head sized rocks and substantial bits of tree; but it goes for 6-8 months without trouble, and last winter it was a minor irritation - but when it's wet like this I realise I need something better.
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camillitech
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« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2016, 08:28:37 PM »

Ah, I see. Mine is more like Rockys (from his description), with silts, gravel and when it gets properly wet, head sized rocks and substantial bits of tree; but it goes for 6-8 months without trouble, and last winter it was a minor irritation - but when it's wet like this I realise I need something better.

Yes, I did one for a friend in a similar location and it was forever problematic with boulders and stones. I guess the answer would have been some kind of 'forebay' but we ended up moving the inlet into a loch. I think our problems will be in the long term with silting up of the penstock!!
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http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
camillitech
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« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2016, 08:40:13 PM »

As you were thinking of a smaller pelton Marcus would this be any use to you?

http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,17235.0.html

It came from the aforementioned 'rocky site', when I moved it some 60m higher up the hill the bronze runner 'didnae like it'. As you can see it's pretty badly damaged, but if you think you can do anything with it I'm sure I could find it and post it out.
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http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
marcus
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« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2016, 10:17:47 PM »

Oh, thanks again Paul for the offer.  Smiley

Err... I must admit to being tempted, but as it's pretty well worn I'm not sure how useful it could be beyond a proof of principal for a small turbine, and I wouldn't want to put you to the trouble for that. If it could be repaired though - don't know much about recasting bronze, but with just 20m head one might get away with something like epoxy? Or silver solder? Hmm..

Although it's raises the question of a Harris turbine (If that's what it is): I'd forgotten about harris; according to their website it has a 4" hydraulic diameter which is smaller than the other peltons, but they don't show a price for the turbine alone.

I'm undecided TBH, I'll have to think about it...
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marcus
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« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2016, 01:04:50 PM »

Just in case anyone i thinking about the turkish pelton wheels referred to in the title:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PELTON-TYPE-WATER-WHEEL-OF-WATER-HYDRO-TURBINE-WITH-11-SPOON-/262289510807?hash=item3d11ac5197:m:m-XdlCWy-nqTgmT6SjsTrAA

As a temporary stop-gap turbine (whilst I organised a permanent replacement setup - probably from h-hydro) I decided to get one of the small 11 spoon turkish peltons - and so far I've been very pleased with it. It's very quiet c.f. the old wheel, and seems very efficient. I've only run it up to 315w as I only have three nozzles set up and being a small pelton it probably won't accept a large jet efficiently (although the seller claims 19mm the cutout of the spoon is about 11.5mm). possibly not as robust as the old wheel as I managed to break one spoon when one of my nozzles slipped into the spinning wheel, but luckily they sent a spare spoon with the wheel.

Ecoinnovation (powerspout) did get back to me but it turns out my old wheel used spoons they didn't make anymore and the new ones wouldn't fit my wheel, so it is now retired.

Oh, and following Rocky's example I managed to get an offcut of Coanda screen.   extrahappy  All I've got to do now is install it...
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Stuart Ian Naylor
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« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2016, 03:53:09 PM »

Thats quite good as because of another post that caught my curiosity I had been browsing ebay and wondering if Turkey was a land of streams.

If not it certainly seems to be a land of pelton wheel ebayers, that for mad boffins and DIYers are quite cheap.

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Rocky
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« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2016, 09:44:25 PM »

Marcus,

Well done on sourcing the Coanda offcut. Get it set up and the regular frequent chore of forever hiking up to the penstock intake to clear away debris will become an occasional check that all is well. I am really pleased with mine, well worth the effort if you have a water source prone to leaves and varying sizes of grit and debris getting washed down in heavy rain.
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