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Author Topic: Water Filtration and pumping  (Read 7819 times)
regen
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« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2016, 06:51:19 AM »

pH correction was a problem for us so i put a 50 litre BLUE  plastic barrel with holes drilled in it in the corner of the well and filled it with 20 worth of lime chipping in old poly pro onion sacks and took the gravity flow from near the bottom. That was 12 years ago. Added 40kg chipping 2 years ago and check using a fish tank test kit every few months. Always reads around neutral.
This gravity feeds a 350 litre tank in roof which supplies all water in house (no rising main)

Regen
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« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2016, 10:45:32 AM »

Ah, clearly a BLUE barrel is the key!  Exactly the same as ours. And exactly the same as Paul's mate with his 'all in one filtration media' (= Barrel full of Lime chipping in onion sacks). hysteria


and just reread -

So, I asked our installers about a pressure switch to switch on said UV at point of demand. Their answer was that a the UV effect was not instantaneous, that would result in some untreated water passing into the system and was not recommended.

So, match wattage to flow and be prepared to waste to keep the peace.

Chas


I was told the opposite and UV at point of demand is exactly what our system does.

Lamp stays on all of the time but I think the wattage is low. The way it works is during the day if the tank is low the 650w pump takes water out of the well if there is water in it. The booster pump is the green thing in the floor. It fills the little red pressure vessel which will top up the bigger red pressure vessel when pressure drops. When we open a tap,  water goes through the filtration system and is purified on demand. When the pressure in the pressure vessels drop, the booster goes on for a few seconds.

I've been told that all of this is available on ebay. Standard kit. And I don't know how, but you might be able to add this into your gravity system somehow and reduce the need for pumps.


* WaterSystem.jpg (230.81 KB, 952x900 - viewed 1061 times.)
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chasfromnorfolk
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« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2016, 02:08:06 PM »

just reread -

So, I asked our installers about a pressure switch to switch on said UV at point of demand. Their answer was that a the UV effect was not instantaneous, that would result in some untreated water passing into the system and was not recommended.

So, match wattage to flow and be prepared to waste to keep the peace.

Chas


I was told the opposite and UV at point of demand is exactly what our system does.

Lamp stays on all of the time but I think the wattage is low. The way it works is

Perhaps it's an ambiguity, V. By 'point of demand' I meant 'time of demand' ie I was hoping to save electricity by only switching the UV on when a tap was opened.

Like you, my UV is on 24/7. And like me, I'd guess yours heats up 'standing water' inside the UV casing to a point where it can become distinctly hot. Mine then goes directly to the kitchen tap about 1m away, so I know it's hot, but yours, travelling through the filters, probably gets 'diluted' by cold by the time it makes it out of a tap, so you may not have noticed it.
As for 'low wattage' and eBay, just be aware that while similar, a lot of UV offered there is to get the minimal treatment needed to keep carp happy - or rather, their water clear enough to be seen - and the garden pond pumps used are relatively low delivery, hence low UV wattage.

To be effective, I do believe it's necessary to match wattage to flow. Maybe your flow's slow - but the pressure vessels suggests otherwise.

Chas
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Justme
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« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2016, 03:38:07 PM »

As mentioned most systems use to much power for an off grid system.

Look at Doulton Rio 2000 filters.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=634877&v=1

You can clean them a few time before they need to be replaced.

Ours last about 2 years.

We have a 1/2 micron pre filter.
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« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2016, 04:11:48 PM »

Quote
Billi - had a look for "ultrafiltration" but this looks to be mostly commercial/laboratory scale in UK. I prefer to source from UK suppliers. I like the idea of a ceramic filter downstream of the supply pump and will do some more digging. Ceramic cartridge replacement in the existing housing might even do the job. What is the power draw on that AL-KO pump, think they do a 600w?

I know , it sounds a bit strange that my outdoor Ultrafitration filter , came in the end from Malaysia for 800 Euro (i think) incl. 2 cartridges (about 1 meter long and 3 inch diam )    ,  but i was quoted in Europe for similar/ same filter ideas   over 3000 Euro

Here is my filter  

I also have a "Ozonboy"  on my kitchen tap  



As i needed a pump anyway to supply pressure to the house , i was not keen on any extra electricity use of a  filter system and  replacement bulbs UV  or RO ideas

Sure my pump uses   i think  800 watt but  it pumps it into a  pressurized  100 l tank  , today  i possibly would go for a 24 Volt pump  with electronic  pressure  control , so  my inverters do not have to work and systhem losses are smaller ,  this one for example (sorry is in german)

http://www.solartechnik-shop.de/Solarstrom/Solarpumpen/Hauswasserwerke/Hauswasserwerk-GAE-24-V-JET  

Billi





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Justme
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« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2016, 06:29:10 PM »

That looks like a lot of money for a filter Billi.

What sort is it?

Is the lower pipe to back flush it for cleaning?
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heatherhopper
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« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2016, 12:07:50 PM »

Looks like quite a wide variation in filtration systems out there. I suppose it comes down to how much you consider necessary. Since our water is generally around neutral pH, the existing 1 micron filter removes all the obvious particulates, there no taste or quality issues and we have no apparent health issues I am loath to start adding extra equipment (and ongoing maintenance costs) into the system. A Doulton Sterasyl OBE cartridge would fit our existing casing and is not much more expensive than the washable cartridges I have been using so I think I will go with this and rely on the data sheet for justification.
A more efficient replacement pump is proving more difficult. The current Draper Booster set unit operation is not a problem until we have an extended period of battery only power with bathing/showering and only then if I were to be unreasonably paranoid about generator operation. Installing a larger pressure tank (such as you have billi) is probably not worth the extra effort when viewed in the context of our overall power supply/usage situation although I suppose a 24v pump would make more sense (costly though). Would still be interested if someone can point me at a reasonably priced, lower draw, pump booster set.
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Justme
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« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2016, 09:37:08 PM »


A more efficient replacement pump is proving more difficult. The current Draper Booster set unit operation is not a problem until we have an extended period of battery only power with bathing/showering and only then if I were to be unreasonably paranoid about generator operation. Installing a larger pressure tank (such as you have billi) is probably not worth the extra effort when viewed in the context of our overall power supply/usage situation although I suppose a 24v pump would make more sense (costly though). Would still be interested if someone can point me at a reasonably priced, lower draw, pump booster set.

How low a draw?

Also remember, a low draw pump will have to be on for longer to pressure / pump the same volume of water.

100L pressure vessels are quite cheap.

The bigger the vessel the less starts the pump will have.

That will equal a longer life.

Even 2-300L ones are reasonable when viewed as a per L.

We have used a few dif pumps. Some with vessels attached & some just power shower pumps. The cheap ones with vessesl attached dont last long. The power shower pumps dont have the flow to supply more than one tap at a time. So showers are not as good as they should be & the bath takes an age to fill.

The current pump is a multi stage pump. Cant remember brand or specs but does the job & is fixable unlike the cheap ones.
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heatherhopper
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« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2016, 12:32:02 AM »

Quote
How low a draw?

Also remember, a low draw pump will have to be on for longer to pressure / pump the same volume of water.

100L pressure vessels are quite cheap

Fair point Justme. Pressure vessels look to be around 1/lt for cheapest ones.
The issue (if it is indeed an issue) is that I want to replace the Draper pump (which has performed faultlessly for five years) with a new pump and retain the Draper as a standby/changeover. There is no redundancy built into the current system although I could alter the pipework reasonably easily to provide emergency gravity feed cold (and even hot for a limited period). I was hoping there might be a slightly more efficient pump at reasonable cost. It is not really possible to say how much lower power draw would make a difference since there is no consistent scenario where the current set-up becomes an issue - the Draper has a small pressure vessel so only operates for significant water use anyway. The real problem is that our battery bank is only 24v and on the small side - not really adequate for a 700w pump operating for extended periods at lowish charge levels. Not a frequent occurrence but anticipating it does sometimes lead to unnecessary generator operation. A normal off-grid compromise I suppose but I was hoping to ease the pain a bit by shaving maybe 100-200W off.
Now that I am actively thinking about a change I am expecting the Draper to vindictively fail.
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« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2016, 11:23:40 AM »

Quote
The real problem is that our battery bank is only 24v and on the small side

Quote
4x576ah Rolls batteries @ 24v
   

So is it a  576 ah bank  ??  or 4 times  more ?

Any way , that pressure vessel (100l)  i got ,  was a good move for us , mainly because  the stat-up intervals  of the pump are reduced ...

The ideal solution , for our place would have been - to dig a hole that collects water  20 meters higher than our home ,  to get enough pressure   for the membrane filter and a nice shower
Or  just use  a direct PV pressure pump to  fill a 1000 l tank  parked  20 m higher

I guess my pressure vessel is smaller than 100 l or in other words only operates  in ca 50 l cycles ( finetuning needed from time to time )  , so during a bath  the pump is running

I guess you have several options , one is to increase the battery bank  (if its only that unbelievable 576 ah) and stay with your drapper pump , but include a pressure vessel , get a DC pump  with a pressure vessel  for example that one http://www.keller-pumpen.de/en/pumps/diaphragm-pumps-shurflo/pumps-shurflo-24v/shurflo-8000-853-238/  and 200 l or so pressure vessel (cause  she will not pump fast enough with her 100 watt  to have a nice shower ... or that other DC pump i linked

... Just thinking loud ..

Billi
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« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2016, 11:27:56 PM »

All very interesting.

V where did you get that blue cylinder to correct the pH as we have the same problem of taking our water from a well but it must be acidic as we always get blue stains in the sinks, shower trays, also my wife's blondish hair turns a nice blueish green colour.
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« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2016, 11:33:05 PM »

Our battery bank is 12v, however it is big.

The bigger the vessel the less time the pump starts but it then runs for longer.

Total energy used will be the same for a 200 watt pump as it will for a 400 watt pump.

One will just run twice as long as the other.

Or go the other way & use switches on each tap / outlet & run the pump when water is needed.
Like in a touring caravan.

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« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2016, 01:08:48 AM »

Quote
So is it a  576 ah bank  ??  or 4 times  more ?
4x6v giving 576ah @24v
Small indeed but I think the problem is high current draw inducing a significant dip in voltage when the bank has not been fully charged for some time (no sun/wind). Without the booster pump operating our base load would not significantly reduce the voltage in most of the situations that I (or the Inverters) get excited enough about to start the generator - sun or wind usually comes to the rescue. Now I'm prepared to be corrected on this but my understanding is that a larger bank would probably exhibit the same problem but it would just take a bit longer to manifest itself. In my situation a bigger bank would be desirable but a higher voltage bank would be the better solution - neither is going to happen until the current bank and/or Inverters lives are up. The small bank is a legacy of an anticipated small off-grid set-up with a fairly heavy dependence on generator. This has developed somewhat from there and even though I would like a bigger bank I have recently come to the conclusion that 1,000ah @ 48v is perhaps even overkill. We have little generator run time these days and chasing ever more days of autonomy in a fickle climate with expensive and life limited batteries does not make economic sense.
I think on balance the problem is not worth too much effort. I just need to decide on a nice new pump and accept the occasional precautionary generator run.
Many thanks for the suggested options and observations though - they are noted for future reference.
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« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2016, 09:12:24 AM »

Quote
So is it a  576 ah bank  ??  or 4 times  more ?

4x6v giving 576ah @24v


So each 6v battery is 576ah?

Or is each one 144ah?

You cant add the ah & the volts.

If they are 6v x 144ah then the possible combinations are

6v x 576ah
12v x 288ah
24v x 144ah.

In all cases total capacity is 3.456 kWh

24v x 576ah would be 13.824 kWh
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« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2016, 09:26:38 AM »

Quote
So is it a  576 ah bank  ??  or 4 times  more ?

4x6v giving 576ah @24v


So each 6v battery is 576ah?

Or is each one 144ah?

You cant add the ah & the volts.

If they are 6v x 144ah then the possible combinations are

6v x 576ah
12v x 288ah
24v x 144ah.

In all cases total capacity is 3.456 kWh

24v x 576ah would be 13.824 kWh

Methinks HH has 4 x 576ah 6v batteries like he said, seem to remember him posting a pic. Probably Roll 6CS series.
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