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Author Topic: Tiny hydro stream system  (Read 21322 times)
knighty
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« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2016, 11:56:25 PM »

if it's low power, and you like to tinker.... why not make a water wheel instead ?

you can build it from scratch, and make a feature out of it at the same time


ok, bit less efficient, but more fun to thinker with, more of your own work instead of buying stuff, and no nozzles to block etc.
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Stuart Ian Naylor
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« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2016, 04:32:14 AM »

Pelton wheel is a good idea as many low head height low flow offerings seem to be of that type.
Its a turbine you really need though as the casing, nozzle position, angle and enclosure are already designed and completed.
You need a flow valve in the system to set the pelton speed (again usually integrated into the turbine) and I guess that is very dependent on your seasonal flow rate.

Main problem is your budget as in the long run often cheap isn't cheap.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2016, 05:54:52 AM by Stuart Ian Naylor » Logged
billi
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« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2016, 08:16:52 AM »

Yep , I had to install a small non return valve attached to the 4 inch pipe to avoid that vacuum effect , that hammed a section of the pipe after closing the 4 inch valve ... Was a loud boom.   Grin
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1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
guydewdney
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« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2016, 09:10:59 AM »

Pelton wheel is a good idea as many low head height low flow offerings seem to be of that type.
Its a turbine you really need though as the casing, nozzle position, angle and enclosure are already designed and completed.
You need a flow valve in the system to set the pelton speed (again usually integrated into the turbine) and I guess that is very dependent on your seasonal flow rate.

Main problem is your budget as in the long run often cheap isn't cheap.

peltons need a minimum of 10m head.
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Pic of wheel on day 1
7.2kW Waterwheel and 9.8kW PV
simonmcc
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« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2016, 09:29:18 AM »

Pelton wheel is a good idea as many low head height low flow offerings seem to be of that type.
Its a turbine you really need though as the casing, nozzle position, angle and enclosure are already designed and completed.
You need a flow valve in the system to set the pelton speed (again usually integrated into the turbine) and I guess that is very dependent on your seasonal flow rate.

Main problem is your budget as in the long run often cheap isn't cheap.

So what should I be looking into as an off the shelf turbine? What sort of budget is required? The only thing I could really see is the PowerSpout, but as far as I can tell it is very expensive for ~100w output
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Stuart Ian Naylor
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« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2016, 09:41:22 AM »

I am not sure about that Guy but then again I have been looking at cheap Chinese pelton turbine literature.

The pressure, flow rate, pelton diameter and capable drive load are all effected by nozzle to pipe ratio, head height, pelton diameter and spoon size.

I guess you could make a nano pelton if you so wished but it would only be capable of a nano drive load.

Anyone got a dummies guide to pelton physics?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelton_wheel
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/hydrostatic-pressure-water-d_1632.html

I must admit I prefer waterwheels in terms of being eco friendly irrespective of gearing loss, algae and stuff will survive being squirted through one of those but I doubt much else.
Look just really great as well as that water wheel of yours is just top.

        
« Last Edit: March 26, 2016, 10:33:18 AM by Stuart Ian Naylor » Logged
billi
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« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2016, 10:33:48 AM »

I guess the small 200-300 watt rated China turbines will work  and the "water buddy" have a look on the www  ...   My China turbine  defnitly would produce power outside the spec range

Regards billi
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1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
Nickel2
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« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2016, 11:08:07 AM »

If you can handle the tools, it's worth having a look on youtube. Lots of fun to be had. (when you are not spending your entire day working on the house).

    Water wheel

      Water wheel

     Turgo turbine (Part 2 of a 250W installation)
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1.140kW mono south-facing at 49*
EpEver 4210A at 24v
24V 400 Ah battery. (4x200Ah FLA)
EpEver STI1000-24-230 pure sine inverter
Of course it'll work. (It hasn't caught fire yet).
Rocky
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« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2016, 11:48:11 AM »

As noted above you don't really have enough head for a pelton, a turgo may be a better one to consider. Lots of information out on the web, I found this site to be useful
 http://www.h-hydro.com/
The technical information pages have a spreadsheet that you can enter details on re head and flow rates, turbine diameter, spoons, nozzle sizes etc. You get out turbine RPM and power. At the end of the day the maximum power available at the turbine is dependent on head, flow and gravity, and for continuous power you need to be able to sustain the head and flow rate. Gravity will look after itself!

Also look at the powerspout calculator re pipe loss etc. You can then start to bring all the information together and get an idea of what is practical.

If you want to build your own PMG look at Hugh Pigot's web site. Lots of ideas there.

All great fun
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Stuart Ian Naylor
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« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2016, 12:14:55 PM »

Been ages since I looked at the Hugh Pigot stuff and mega site http://www.scoraigwind.com/

I am not sure if it is too low for Pelton but there is also lower head Turgo turbines but you mentioned powerspout and they have a chart for their products that looks like it could.
http://www.powerspout.com/assets/Published/public/PowerSpout-Model-Selection-Chart-Metric.pdf

http://powerspout.com/advanced-calculator/

http://scoraigwind.co.uk/powerspout-hydro-turbines/
« Last Edit: March 26, 2016, 12:18:11 PM by Stuart Ian Naylor » Logged
marcus
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« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2016, 12:18:08 PM »

you mentioned that you have a PMG? how many rpm does it need to produce a useful 100w?

The answer to that will tell you what turbine you need; basically the jet velocity is determined by the available head; the spoon velocity will be approx 1/2 the jet velocity, and so the less head you have, then the lower the rpm of your turbine.

A smaller diameter turbine will give you more rpm - which is why a turgo tends to be better at low head - it's easier to make a small dia turgo than pelton, and a turgo of a given size will accept a larger water jet. You will struggle to find a pelton much below 120mm dia and it will only accept jets of up to 10mm or so; and with only 8m head you're probably looking at 250-350rpm tops (without doing the calcs). If your PMG works well at that speed then a pelton may work fine.
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marcus
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« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2016, 12:40:36 PM »

Actually I might have been a bit pessimistic with that estimate - if my calcs are correct: 8m static, so assume 6.5m dynamic gives you a jet velocity of ~11m/s and a runner velocity of 5.5m/s which with a 120mm dia runner gives approx 860rpm.
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gravyminer
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« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2016, 05:43:52 PM »

I do love the vortex generators -



and a few more pictures -

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vortex+water+powered+generator&biw=1186&bih=838&tbm=isch&imgil=Z7NUBBI2d-JXYM%253A%253BrkpTJc-YLDAfxM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.youtube.com%25252Fwatch%25253Fv%2525253Doo_mP18IXMo&source=iu&pf=m&fir=Z7NUBBI2d-JXYM%253A%252CrkpTJc-YLDAfxM%252C_&usg=__oNi_C-9a0Ylf6YkKEEe_StEJT98%3D&ved=0ahUKEwiGpanN7N7LAhUEAxoKHcyOCu0QyjcIMQ&ei=C8P2VsbzLoSGaMydqugO#imgrc=WbSbZS1jVnO4wM%3A
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gravyminer
smegal
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« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2016, 05:55:27 PM »

Pelton wheel is a good idea as many low head height low flow offerings seem to be of that type.
Its a turbine you really need though as the casing, nozzle position, angle and enclosure are already designed and completed.
You need a flow valve in the system to set the pelton speed (again usually integrated into the turbine) and I guess that is very dependent on your seasonal flow rate.

Main problem is your budget as in the long run often cheap isn't cheap.

So what should I be looking into as an off the shelf turbine? What sort of budget is required? The only thing I could really see is the PowerSpout, but as far as I can tell it is very expensive for ~100w output

A pump is what I'd recommend for your application.
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When youíre thirsty, itís too late to dig a well. - Unknown
Stuart Ian Naylor
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« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2016, 12:01:39 PM »

A pump is what I'd recommend for your application.

Dunno about pump but was just running with what simonmcc initially posted in the form of a shed boffin DIY type project. Simon did you say you already had a PMG even though only 100 watts?

Grayminer thanks for the Gravitation water vortex as that is new to me and add another fan. http://www.zotloeterer.com/welcome/gravitation-water-vortex-power-plants/


  
« Last Edit: March 27, 2016, 02:17:37 PM by Stuart Ian Naylor » Logged
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