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Author Topic: Tiny hydro stream system  (Read 20457 times)
Nickel2
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« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2016, 02:40:15 PM »

Z O T L ÷ T E R E R
Thank you Herr Zotloterer!
First time I've seen this. What a wunderbar idea. This has been going on since 2002 and I had not discovered it. There are low-drop weirs all over the place that would be suitable for this application. I shall advocate this whenever I hear/see discussion of small hydro plant. You-tube time!
Cheers GM, more nollij gratefully absorbed.
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1.140kW mono south-facing at 49*
EpEver 4210A at 24v
24V 400 Ah battery. (4x200Ah FLA)
EpEver STI1000-24-230 pure sine inverter
Of course it'll work. (It hasn't caught fire yet).
gravyminer
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« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2016, 02:54:30 PM »

Yeah Stuart
theres more energy capture potential from vortecular motion.
We've had discussions here in the past regarding temperature gradients as one of the properties of vortecular motion is a temperature drop. This energy is taken from the water and converted into potential energy that can be harvested by a central vertical rotor.

If I remember correctly, Guys waterwheel recorded a temp rise of 1degree centigrade upstream /downstream, which at 1 cu m per second represents eeerrr several hundred watts of power lost to heating the water .....

The interesting challenge with the rotor design for a vortex generator is that while it looks like theres loads of thrust being left uncaptured beyond the rotor, the inward accelerating vortecular motion concentrates the energy towards the centre. The vortex shape is triggered when the spin increases enough to centrifuge it outward.
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gravyminer
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« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2016, 03:09:52 PM »

Ah Nickel2
you missed previous discussions about Zotlotterers vortex generator and Schaubergers work cos you is a newbie  genuflect

Peeps get a bit sniffy about Schauberger because he apparently created free energy devices for the Germans during WW2.
All his work was gathered by 'operation paperclip' (when all the cutting edge science was grabbed) or by the advancing Russians and has not seen the light of day since.......

Early 20c is a fascinating period of history for science.

Whats indisputable is that Zotlotterers vortex generator harvests more than mainstream hydro engineers say is possible  extrahappy
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gravyminer
Stuart Ian Naylor
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« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2016, 04:23:52 PM »

Yeah Stuart

Just been reading about  Viktor Schauberger which is also extremely interesting. http://schauberger.co.uk/

Is this me being dumb or could you simply cascade these down stream in a distributed system that has only positive environmental impact?

Is this stuck because of patent licensing as surprised haven't seen more that proves or disproves viability.

 

 
« Last Edit: March 27, 2016, 04:28:02 PM by Stuart Ian Naylor » Logged
smegal
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« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2016, 05:11:34 PM »

A pump is what I'd recommend for your application.

Dunno about pump but was just running with what simonmcc initially posted in the form of a shed boffin DIY type project. Simon did you say you already had a PMG even though only 100 watts?

Grayminer thanks for the Gravitation water vortex as that is new to me and add another fan. http://www.zotloeterer.com/welcome/gravitation-water-vortex-power-plants/


  

Using a pump as a turbine still need some boffinery, but is likely to be the cheapest way to use that hydro potential.
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When youíre thirsty, itís too late to dig a well. - Unknown
biff
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« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2016, 05:29:58 PM »

Ah Herr Schauberger,
                       He was waiting on Aix for the good news and as I poured the last of the wine into gallant Roland,
    the scoundrel upped and did a runner to mother Russia and we never ever got the news or got to achieve perpetual motion..
    "With hos nostrils like pits,full of blood to the brim"
    "And with circles of red for his eye sockets rim"
     A fine hoss he wass,, not Herr Schauberger,, Roland I mean.
                                                Biff
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djs63
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« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2016, 06:01:09 PM »

There are many times in my life when I haven't got a clue what is going on tumble and this is up there with the best of them.
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6 Kw Proven wind turbine, 15 Navitron evacuated solar hot water tube array and 1.8 Kw PV, grid connected (SMA inverters) and GSHP supplying radiators and UFH. Wood burning stove (Esse 300) and oil fired Rayburn. Rainwater harvesting 4000 litre tank underground. Nissan Leaf
Nickel2
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« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2016, 07:25:28 PM »

Looking at the output of the system, I think I'd describe the action as a 'focus-engine'. The descent of 'X' weight of water through 'Y' distance releases 'Z' amount of energy. In a water-wheel there are losses due to the design of the wheel, feed channels etc. As I understand from the vortex system, these losses appear to be reduced by the fact that all of the water goes through the full drop-distance, no splash/leakage/fill bucket/empty bucket waste. The forward motion of several tons of water per minute holds a lot of stored power, that is used to create the vortex and focus the energy in the water body into a small high-speed stream through the turbine runner. The runner extracts the energy by slowing the water's vertical and rotary motion to a near-stop before releasing it to the tail race.
Have I got it? Huh    I've never done water-power, only looked at the machinery that extracts the Watts.  Tongue
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1.140kW mono south-facing at 49*
EpEver 4210A at 24v
24V 400 Ah battery. (4x200Ah FLA)
EpEver STI1000-24-230 pure sine inverter
Of course it'll work. (It hasn't caught fire yet).
Stuart Ian Naylor
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« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2016, 09:18:00 PM »

I think the vortex creates additional dynamic pressure to the hydostatic pressure and only know that from googling out of interest about "water gravity vortexes"

The original poster said he only had 7ltr/s and I am thinking that even though the head height requirement is less, more flow would be needed?

Apols to Simonmcc as things have gone a bit tangential, but I think a few have thought that gravity vortex lower head, higher flow along many a river or stream must have huge potential.
As to biffs post I am not really sure, lol, apart from wine was involved.

Its been quite an interesting thread though as I know nothing really of hydro engineering, but have learnt quite a lot.

No one has mentioned much about turgo?

  
« Last Edit: March 27, 2016, 11:13:29 PM by Stuart Ian Naylor » Logged
biff
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« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2016, 10:03:01 PM »

Ah Ha! djs63,
             Confused, So was I..But fear not, I will leave it all as clear as mud in a moment,
  "I sprang to the stirrup,and Joris and He,
  "I gallop,d, Dirck gallop,d, We galloped all three,
 Good speed, cried...........
   Yes exciting stuff until you are called to recite your verse and then you fluff it, loosing the momentum..
  Then you are asked what was this news, right, ? So you have to come up with an apparent reasonable answer, Right.?
  But you know that there was a gent in Ghent who lent his bent and sent a scent of conspiracy to Herr Schauberger in Aix,
  I know,,,,I know , It is damdish tricky but even the genius Browning was know to fall flat on his face trying to recite his own work,
 And the news, What news?, May you ask,
  That is where Herr Schauberger comes into it, After the news was delivered Aix,He bought two tickets for Moscow,
  We don,t know who the other person was but Herr Schauberger never reached Moscow,
  It was thought that he joined a circle of yurt builders who later disappeared into a vortex of half truths and full lies.
  This of course is not the full unabridged version. Guinness does not agree with Sweet and Sour Chicken..
  Of that i am sure...
            Biff
 
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Stuart Ian Naylor
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« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2016, 11:30:28 PM »

 tumble


Design and Optimisation of a Water Vortex Hydropower Plant
https://itsligo.ie/wp-includes/ms-files.php?file=2011/03/Sean-Mulligan-A0.pdf
Comparison of cylindrical and conical basins with optimum position of runner: Gravitational water vortex power plant
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364032115003007
gravitation water vortex power plant  
http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9751.0.html
Development and Testing of Runner and Conical Basin for Gravitational Water Vortex Power Plant
http://www.nepjol.info/index.php/JIE/article/download/10895/8869

Dunno
« Last Edit: March 27, 2016, 11:41:24 PM by Stuart Ian Naylor » Logged
gravyminer
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« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2016, 11:46:00 PM »

Ok its all rather off topic but I first came across Viktor Schauberger in a book written by Nick Cook, who was a researcher and editor at Jane's Defense Weekly. He went in search of the remaining evidence of cutting edge developments that disappeared in operation paperclip at the end of WW2

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22198.The_Hunt_for_Zero_Point

The chapter on Schauberger was compelling and has resulted in me meeting and becoming friends with some seriously bright and fascinating people. Yes, it takes us into woo woo territory but when you've seen things first hand that do not make sense you have to become open to things that science says cannot be, or you have to run and hide behind newtons 3rd .....

Zotlotterer has taken up one of the simpler ideas that Schauberger demonstrated as have others who have developed flow forms http://www.livingwaterflowforms.com/research.htm       and natural river management schemes in Australia.

I was not aware that Viktor was involved in bringing the good news from Ghent to Aix though   signofcross
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gravyminer
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« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2016, 11:51:03 PM »

Just been reading about  Viktor Schauberger which is also extremely interesting. http://schauberger.co.uk/

Is this me being dumb or could you simply cascade these down stream in a distributed system that has only positive environmental impact?

Is this stuck because of patent licensing as surprised haven't seen more that proves or disproves viability.

Theres no reason why vortex generators cannot be put at close intervals Stuart. Its been considered but I think as its not mainstream and the hydro engineers say it cannot generate as much as is claimed ( and demonstrated ) they will not recommend it.
Only those with vision, a suitable site and a bit of wonga have taken up the idea so far.
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gravyminer
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« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2016, 12:18:48 AM »

Stuart

none of those links ( apart from that troublemaker noelsquibb on the old navi link ) even mention temperature gradients.

The amount of energy involved in raising or lowering the temperature of constantly flowing water is significant, yet it is generally ignored when considering hydro designs.

There is a device called a hydrobrake that we sometimes use to hold back high water flows and release the backed up flows at a constant rate.
So this thing gives a constant outflow regardless of how hard the water is pushing from above.
Look inside and all it does is rotate the flow.
The puzzling thing is how the flow remains constant for a varying head ?

I now see how the extra energy is dissipated by warming the water ........

http://www.hydro-int.com/uk/products/hydro-brake-optimum?gclid=CMTF0-P64csCFeUV0wod3aQPhA

At this point I usually give up trying to convince folk and leave em to choose what to think  wackoteapot
« Last Edit: March 28, 2016, 12:29:31 AM by gravyminer » Logged

gravyminer
Stuart Ian Naylor
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« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2016, 08:13:12 AM »

I don't really have an opinion as of yet and we should start a new thread, so this one can continue with loads more weird and wonderful ideas and solutions.

I only posted those links as the design does seem to be under development and research and can not find any complete debunking or fraud claims.

Fluids do have extremely weird properties and the eddy currents and in general vortexes are fantastically weird and complex.
I haven't done enough reading to make any personal opinion, but I do think its an interesting and novel approach.
Its very different to many impulse turbines and conventional water wheels and I don't think the exact same physics apply.

The only doubt I have about trying to harness irrotational power is that at a guess its a bit like the Coandă effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coand%C4%83_effect.
The energy clings to the surface of the vortex and velocity increases down and closer to the "eye" axis.
The impeller designs on show seemed to cause confusion as I expected some sort of spiral helix, thingy Smiley
I just don't know and don't have the knowledge but I will try to refrain from verse.  tumble    

 
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