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Author Topic: my first powercut in 9 years  (Read 15985 times)
billi
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« Reply #105 on: September 24, 2016, 11:53:21 AM »

Thanks EB    , yes  thats what i was told years back as well , that i need some thing to smooth ...
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1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
eabadger
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« Reply #106 on: September 24, 2016, 12:00:12 PM »

simple to achieve, i am not in to gti but a quick surf says they do have up 600v dc input so that would work.
but dc transmission not so good as ac.

steve
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1600w PV main array at 24v, excide 2v 1000a forklift cells now x 2, 320w PV secondary array at 12v. Enfield 1944 ex RAF 5.6kw diesel genset (now in pieces, big ends gone), Petter AC1 28v diesel charging set at 2.8kw.
1kw wind turbine.
26kw wood stove back boiler to underfloor heating and dhw
Scruff
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« Reply #107 on: September 24, 2016, 03:41:15 PM »

 What I meant was that they register by digital meters and of course they are calibrated to record the present power outputs
          An additional transformer would perhaps mean different calibration was necessary.

I put meters and sense conductors directly on the battery which are the only exception to my don't-be-messy-and-put-everything-on-the-bus-bar-rule fight
The reason for the rule is so I can disconnect the battery with one(ish) termination. It might work up to a point to make the battery post the bus but after a small bit of expansion it quickly becomes a spaghetti clustermuck. The reason the meters are on the battery post is so they have a dedicated conductor set and aren't losing accuracy from the cable resistance due to having a shared path with a load, the good ones will either compensate for self-consumption or have sense conductors(in which case sense to battery and power to bus). To get an accuracy correct to the least significant digit 0.1, @48v means I spec. a meter with an accuracy of 0.1%. (0.4% @12v).

For differential metering then the meter tails are connected to the sensible point of reference (Turnip AC; meter upstream of transformer (if you are using one, less lossy get a head wound for battery voltage), Transformer AC Output; upstream of rectifier). Shunted meters are more accurate than a current transformer/hall effect sensor based ones, but the shunt needs to be inserted in series to the load and will lose a modicum of power and accuracy at full load (usually aboot -50mV).

If the meter is within spec Biff the calibration is according to that. In any case it pays to splash out on a good meter that you trust and calibrate all your cheep and cheerfuls from that as a reference.



your turbine output is only single phase, don't think a regular rectifier will work. I know you do get single phase rectifiers though

Half wave = lossy



Losing half your power and filthy pulsed DC...fine for phone chargers with filtering when you don't need all the power.







Three phase rectifier



You can use this format, it costs extra diodes but it runs cooler and hence more better.






Shottky rectifiers & diodes have half the voltage drop of regular rectifiers so best first port of call.

Three phase = more better than single, far more efficient. Billi's turnip is converted from 3 phase to single within the head if my google powers are rightwards.



Might be nonsense what i say ...... fingers crossed!      ,... Scruff ?
 

I'm no turnip pilot folks...so I've no experimental experience to back this up but I imagine DC is DC it's all the same to the inverter/controller once the polarity is correct.
[EDIT]: Wind MPPT is very different from PV MPPT, inertia factoring maybe. There's software for this on the MidNite I think and likely some others.

It does make sense to smooth pulsed DC to keep the battery amicable and make it more square wavey, hence reducing ripple. But car alternators seem to do without and I've not seen any turnip senseis spec them.  




but dc transmission not so good as ac.


Why do you say that Steve? There's no skin effect with DC, it's RMS is (ideally) it's peak voltage. Harder to convert, switch and protect against definitely.
HVDC is taking over intercontinental transmission.  
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 08:23:25 PM by Scruff » Logged
eabadger
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« Reply #108 on: September 24, 2016, 05:55:52 PM »

it was how i was taught many years ago at college, main reason was ac is much easier to increase and decrease voltage via transformers, dc at high voltage which is needed for successful transmission requires electronic switching devices which were prone to fail, things have changed, but my feeling is DC over distance is not so good.
have you read about Tesla and Edison, they had this same conversation when power was first transmitted, at first DC was the way.
but time moves on, maybe i didnt keep up.

steve
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1600w PV main array at 24v, excide 2v 1000a forklift cells now x 2, 320w PV secondary array at 12v. Enfield 1944 ex RAF 5.6kw diesel genset (now in pieces, big ends gone), Petter AC1 28v diesel charging set at 2.8kw.
1kw wind turbine.
26kw wood stove back boiler to underfloor heating and dhw
Scruff
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« Reply #109 on: September 24, 2016, 06:20:07 PM »

HVDC once they cracked the transforming conundrum is winning out. The peak to peak voltage of alternating current means you need more overhead on insulation and conductor clearance. AC also only uses conductor surface area to transmit so cables are more high tech (bigger and stranded).

HVDC is compatible with 50hz and 60hz grids.

Seems like Edison's proposal is gaining traction. Localised DC networks.  Still I like Tesla's idea to transmit power with the earth's harmonic frequency as the primary side of a transformer, DC won't help there.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 08:04:46 PM by Scruff » Logged
eabadger
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« Reply #110 on: September 25, 2016, 09:02:01 AM »

seems with cost and development of thyristors it is now more efficient on long line transmission with the caveat that simple transformers are probably less prone to fail and less expensive, according to the link below break eaven was 800km but cost most have come down again a piece is now old.

my feeling, i would sooner keep it simple, just again old school me, from a recycling point transformers are pretty good at living again with all that copper, but solid state? again remember the voltages we are talking about are many kv.
we do some work at a power station, have you ever seen one come online? the cables jolt rigid when the power is taken online and the noise when excitation begins is, well you have to hear it, but out of this world.

http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2010/ph240/hamerly1/

i should keep more up with things, i had no idea how things were changing, but ideal for solar farms and the like.
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1600w PV main array at 24v, excide 2v 1000a forklift cells now x 2, 320w PV secondary array at 12v. Enfield 1944 ex RAF 5.6kw diesel genset (now in pieces, big ends gone), Petter AC1 28v diesel charging set at 2.8kw.
1kw wind turbine.
26kw wood stove back boiler to underfloor heating and dhw
biff
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« Reply #111 on: September 25, 2016, 09:27:40 AM »

Long distance HVDC,
                         Has been around for a while now, I am guessing something like 6 or 7 years. It is a subject that has come up on Navitron that long ago and it was fresh back then.
  The cables has been laid under the sea and fed into a massive barn like structure on the landfall. The only way I can describe these massive buildings is to imagine the inside of a dc controller,
  With the different giant components all lined up in their correct order, Rows of giant rectifiers hanging from what looked like a 50ft + ceiling, Judging fro  the scale of the man walking the centre isle.
  It had been discussed before but scientists wrote it off as incredibly dangerous and impossible to control, Yet there is was working perfectly and being lauded as the best way forward in modern times.
  Back then they had completed distances of 300miles under the sea and saying that greater distances would not be a problem.
                                                                                Biff
  Not that it matters, But our immersions are 138vdc. We have 2 of them, One in each tank, One travels 150ft approx and the other even farther again. They are very efficient and do not take long to heat our 500ltrs total amount of water. We are never short of domestic hot water,even on a morning like this morning.
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« Reply #112 on: September 25, 2016, 10:01:19 AM »

that time frame is when i stopped working full time, lost eyesight in one eye and could no longer do the micro electronic repairs, sort of retired but then got pulled back, but living off grid doesn't have take your time up especially whilst building the place single handed.

i had the feeling my life was turning in to the john Lennon song http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/johnlennon/watchingthewheels.html
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1600w PV main array at 24v, excide 2v 1000a forklift cells now x 2, 320w PV secondary array at 12v. Enfield 1944 ex RAF 5.6kw diesel genset (now in pieces, big ends gone), Petter AC1 28v diesel charging set at 2.8kw.
1kw wind turbine.
26kw wood stove back boiler to underfloor heating and dhw
billi
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« Reply #113 on: September 25, 2016, 12:45:29 PM »

Quote
Billi's turnip is converted from 3 phase to single within the head if my google powers are rightwards.

Scruff , that is what i also remember from former talks to Ivan that i have a 3 phase PMA in the waterturbine .....  not sure if i want to touch that   working turbine , with its regulator +  watercooled  dump element , placed  at the water outlet  stream of the turbine ...









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1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
biff
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« Reply #114 on: September 25, 2016, 01:13:50 PM »

Sorry for going off at a tangent Billi,
                               But if somehow you can manage to get up to 48volts, it will be well worth it.
       All the better for your hydro being PMG and rectified, you will be able to replicate that with an additional
     water cooled dump load.If you count all the work you put into your hydro dam an upgrade now
    would be money well spent.
                                     Biff
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« Reply #115 on: September 26, 2016, 12:37:16 AM »

AC is much easier to transport around a site and installation alright. Few copper coils, iron core, more coils bingo low loss conversion on small cables.
I like the reliability of a battery hearted system that doesn't need an inverter at all...all you have to do is remove the need for synchronous motors, induction chargers, devices with suitable PSUs included, induction hobs, a microwave, phase fired speed control, inductive hair straightener..ok induction anything... whistlie

Billi your hydro turbine sounds spiffing. I'm not suggesting you alter it in any way, you'd just be adding a transformer beside your current one with parallel inputs and series outputs. Box the two of them if you want and label it Dual-Core-Roboter-in-der-Verkleidung.  Tail the output to a new rectifier same as your present except with a higher peak reverse repetitive voltage. The lower the forward voltage of the rectifier signifies the less heat losses. It should be cheaper the one you use now because it's half the current.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 12:47:29 AM by Scruff » Logged
biff
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« Reply #116 on: September 26, 2016, 09:06:03 AM »

Errrr Scruff,
            You mean parallel output,220/230ac and input of 24v and 24volt in series =48v input,,,No ?
                                                                   Biff
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« Reply #117 on: September 26, 2016, 10:01:06 AM »

The turnip is the input the battery is the output Biff. Its opposite an inverter configuration. Smiley
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billi
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« Reply #118 on: September 26, 2016, 11:45:42 AM »

Quote
-in-der-Verkleidung
  that was a good one  ,Scruff  Grin

anyway, i run the turbine only 1000 hours a year   max


i will not change anything    on my system   for now  untill i know more about repairing ideas
The 48 Volt idea is a good idea , but  as said  , the system was and is working smooth since years , and a lot of brain has gone into the whole idea 

Billi


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1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
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