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Author Topic: Are "dual use" batteries any good?  (Read 11202 times)
billi
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« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2016, 05:05:19 PM »

Fork lift cells should be lighter  and use lesser ground space as  regular 12 volt(6 cells)  batteries

The batteries u linked are all cr@p  for a PV-battery idea (is it for your 4 kW PV ?) and  3 -5 times more expensive than new  forklift cells
i expect not more than 200-400 cycles 80% dicharge   from them

Billi
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1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
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« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2016, 05:30:01 PM »



Liking the look of the Banner Energy Bull batteries, listed everywhere as leisure batteries but nobody shows a CCA rating for them, which is a good sign.

They're just as carp as all the other leisure batteries you linked to. Every 'off gridder' on the forum has been down the leisure battery route first and learned to their cost that they are carp.

Cheers, Paul
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http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
knighty
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« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2016, 07:27:20 PM »

I'm working with 24v. I'd love to get my hands on a set of forklift cells but i've got an access/storage problem (along with not being able to lift them) in my battery shed. Going to pick up some "regular" shaped batteries which i can get help with setting up, just need to work out which ones.

The offer is much appreciated though.

Liking the look of the Banner Energy Bull batteries, listed everywhere as leisure batteries but nobody shows a CCA rating for them, which is a good sign.

pack is already broken apart, so you can lift each cell individually

can send them on a pallet to you for 40 ish (that's what I paid)


don't want to be pushy... just hate the idea of scrapping them :-o

if you weren't so far away I'd say come have a look/poke first
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Justme
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« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2016, 09:38:05 PM »

Fork lift cells should be lighter  and use lesser ground space as  regular 12 volt(6 cells)  batteries

The batteries u linked are all cr@p  for a PV-battery idea (is it for your 4 kW PV ?) and  3 -5 times more expensive than new  forklift cells
i expect not more than 200-400 cycles 80% dicharge   from them

Billi

Who in their right mind discharges to 20% soc?

50% is the typical sweet spot for cycles, replacement costs, total life time & recharge costs.
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Scruff
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« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2016, 12:26:42 AM »

Banner are about the only true deep cycle other than the Trojan TMX available in a 12V format. However you can get better batteries for less money in a 6V format. They weigh more, cost less and have a higher cycle life for the same rating. Trojan T105s are industry standard. Crown CR-220 are better still.

Sorry to say it but you're going to get shafted and lied to hand over fist if you go shopping in the leisure/recreational markets.

Go commercial/industrial with 6V deep cycles for golf carts/scissor lifts.

Your friend needs to spend more on PV and less on batteries. First one needs generators adequate to meet the loads and second batteries to fill the gaps. I think most people design a system around how long the battery can last. In a perfect system the battery is not used, power from generator goes direct to load and the battery is only there for back-up.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 04:52:27 PM by Scruff » Logged
Stevieboy118
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« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2016, 01:24:29 PM »

I'm working with 24v. I'd love to get my hands on a set of forklift cells but i've got an access/storage problem (along with not being able to lift them) in my battery shed. Going to pick up some "regular" shaped batteries which i can get help with setting up, just need to work out which ones.

The offer is much appreciated though.

Liking the look of the Banner Energy Bull batteries, listed everywhere as leisure batteries but nobody shows a CCA rating for them, which is a good sign.

pack is already broken apart, so you can lift each cell individually

can send them on a pallet to you for 40 ish (that's what I paid)


don't want to be pushy... just hate the idea of scrapping them :-o

if you weren't so far away I'd say come have a look/poke first

Just being conversational, what are the dimensions of the cells? It's over my budget (we've just found out we've got another happy accident on the way!) but i could make my 24v block, my friends 12v set and sell on/scrap the rest (or hoard them to make a second bank at a latter date).
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Stevieboy118
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« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2016, 01:33:05 PM »


Your friend needs to spend more on PV and less on batteries. First one needs generators adequate to meet the loads and second batteries to fill the gaps. I think most people design a system around how long the battery can last. In a perfect system the battery is not used, power from generator goes direct to load and the battery is only there for back-up.


His turbine used to cover everything when his trailer was near the main road into plymouth, it made a nice wind tunnel so it never stopped spinning, the farmer moved his fields around and now he's about 500m from where he was with a row a trees on one side and his turbine doesn't spin until the wind has properly picked up.

He's stuck in the "Vimes cheap boots" situation, he can afford a couple gallons of petrol for his generator and a fresh battery every few months but not the lump of cash to get 200/300w of solar for his roof (would probably be freestanding now i think about it, the soot from his wood burner would mess up the surface of the panels pretty quickly.

I'm still trying to recover the 4 batteries that i lent him at the start of the year, he ran them individually instead of in parallel, coupled with poor charging and the plates are all sulphated again Sad
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4kW pv (16x250+good-we inverter)
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Pile-o-tatty-batteries
107L water tank solar dump
Anything else the wife will let me play with.
RIT
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« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2016, 01:50:57 PM »

Fork lift cells should be lighter  and use lesser ground space as  regular 12 volt(6 cells)  batteries

The batteries u linked are all cr@p  for a PV-battery idea (is it for your 4 kW PV ?) and  3 -5 times more expensive than new  forklift cells
i expect not more than 200-400 cycles 80% dicharge   from them

Billi

Who in their right mind discharges to 20% soc?

50% is the typical sweet spot for cycles, replacement costs, total life time & recharge costs.

Well a 80%/1,500 cycle battery solution would provide 20% more storage over its life when compared to a 50%/2,000 cycle solution. It would also take up less space for the same daily output and depending on the quote can result in a lower capital outlay - you just end up replacing it sooner in the future.

As with all things it depends on your needs. One problem I've found is that few manufacturers publish a DoD vs cycles graph for their batteries so you can't compare options or map them to real life where your daily discharge will never just be a single repeated value.
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billi
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« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2016, 02:31:20 PM »

RIT in principle   i see it similar  , but 50% is more  likely  3000 cycles then ,  for PzS forklift ones
there is not much difference in kWh one can use seen over the lifespan regardless of  DOD

I would even say that shallow discharges cycles are a waste of input energy cause  the last 20- 30% to  charge them full is very inefficient

Most  of the shelf selfconsumption  optimizing  battery  ideas , with FLA,   do not  charge the battery fully , even when there is enough PV ,  more periodically only
, but this is more in Grid exporting setups

In an off grid idea   surely  why not charge full  instead of dumping PV

billi
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1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
billi
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« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2016, 02:39:44 PM »

Quote
It's over my budget

Stevieboy118      Shocked   so 400 GBP was too much .... hmm

Can you please tell us what  size  and  for what u need the batteries  ?


u have a 4 kW PV  is it not for that ?
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1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
Stevieboy118
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« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2016, 03:00:37 PM »

Quote
It's over my budget

Stevieboy118      Shocked   so 400 GBP was too much .... hmm

Can you please tell us what  size  and  for what u need the batteries  ?


u have a 4 kW PV  is it not for that ?

I'd framed my budget on how much 4 x 110ah leisure batteries would cost, which was a fart over 200, but i've got a few odds and ends to sell on so i'm flexible.

I've got my 4kW PV to charge with, i was hoping to get enough storage to run the overnight stuff, fridge, 2 freezers, modem, bathroom light, etc. Admittedly this is exactly the wrong time of year to be trying this, we're generating 2-5kWh a day right now which doesn't even cover the house load but i've got her to agree to let me spend a few quid on my project so i'm getting it done before she changes her mind.

I used to have my Lister to play with, then we moved and i couldn't get it into the new place, then the new car was allergic to my biodiesel, the PV and some storage is the only thing i've got left to tinker with.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 03:56:05 PM by Stevieboy118 » Logged

4kW pv (16x250+good-we inverter)
Wood burner
Pile-o-tatty-batteries
107L water tank solar dump
Anything else the wife will let me play with.
Tiff
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« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2016, 04:15:09 PM »

Banner are about the only true deep cycle other than the Trojan TMX available in a 12V format. However you can get better batteries for less money in a 6V format. They weigh more, cost less and have a higher cycle life for the same rating. Trojan T105s are industry standard. Crown CR-225 are better still.

Sorry to say it but you're going to get shafted and lied to hand over fist if you go shopping in the leisure/recreational markets.

Go commercial/industrial with 6V deep cycles for golf carts/scissor lifts.

Your friend needs to spend more on PV and less on batteries. First one needs generators adequate to meet the loads and second batteries to fill the gaps. I think most people design a system around how long the battery can last. In a perfect system the battery is not used, power from generator goes direct to load and the battery is only there for back-up.


^ That's good advice!

A bought a set of TMX clones, faired better than leisure batts but are now pretty much knackered after 4 years. I really regret not at the very least going for T105s, which would have cost a bit more but would have been far better value for money. My system is not really big enough to justify the scale and expense of fork lift batteries.
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Tiff
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« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2016, 04:19:36 PM »

RIT in principle   i see it similar  , but 50% is more  likely  3000 cycles then ,  for PzS forklift ones
there is not much difference in kWh one can use seen over the lifespan regardless of  DOD

I would even say that shallow discharges cycles are a waste of input energy cause  the last 20- 30% to  charge them full is very inefficient



More wise words. I did the sums on various batteries (mainly Trojans) and found that no matter what DOD you went to, the lifetime kWh stayed the same. That final long, slow, inefficient finishing charge is why I think lead acid are not best suited for a daily cycle from PV only.
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Tiff
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« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2016, 04:22:08 PM »


Stevieboy, come to the dark side where the 18650 cell is waiting for you...... Wink
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« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2016, 04:46:21 PM »

Battery Dimensions



Used panels are cheap and I've never had a problem with them nor has my usually smoldering wood burner impeded my PV module from 0.5m except when the ploom shades it which is rare. Instead of buying every second battery Vimes could buy a PV module for intents and porpoises it quite often behaves like a battery for decades of service.

Now is the perfect time to buy Solar gear. Nobody wants it in the Winter and people are selling off unused kit for beer tokens.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 04:48:17 PM by Scruff » Logged
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