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Author Topic: Are "dual use" batteries any good?  (Read 12755 times)
knighty
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« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2016, 06:29:34 PM »

Just being conversational, what are the dimensions of the cells? It's over my budget (we've just found out we've got another happy accident on the way!) but i could make my 24v block, my friends 12v set and sell on/scrap the rest (or hoard them to make a second bank at a latter date).

I'll take some photos for you :-)

don't worry about leading me on and then not wanting them... I just feel bad scraping good cells

24cells total, 12 for you, 6 for your mate, 6 to scrap sounds pretty perfect, means you can pick out the best cells and scrap the worst ones
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Justme
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« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2016, 08:18:52 PM »

Fork lift cells should be lighter  and use lesser ground space as  regular 12 volt(6 cells)  batteries

The batteries u linked are all cr@p  for a PV-battery idea (is it for your 4 kW PV ?) and  3 -5 times more expensive than new  forklift cells
i expect not more than 200-400 cycles 80% dicharge   from them

Billi

Who in their right mind discharges to 20% soc?

50% is the typical sweet spot for cycles, replacement costs, total life time & recharge costs.

Well a 80%/1,500 cycle battery solution would provide 20% more storage over its life when compared to a 50%/2,000 cycle solution. It would also take up less space for the same daily output and depending on the quote can result in a lower capital outlay - you just end up replacing it sooner in the future.

As with all things it depends on your needs. One problem I've found is that few manufacturers publish a DoD vs cycles graph for their batteries so you can't compare options or map them to real life where your daily discharge will never just be a single repeated value.

No you misunderstand.

You use the same bats that can do 80% / 1500 cycles but use the at 50% SOC / DOD.

The number of cycles will be vastly more than your 2000 guestimate.
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camillitech
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« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2016, 08:39:46 PM »


The number of cycles will be vastly more than your 2000 guestimate.

But the kWh in and kWh out would remain the same, well that's the theory and it's one that I subscribe to personally. Sure the batteries don't last as long in time but the amount stored remains the same. Means you can buy a smaller bank I guess. Not saying it's 'gospel' as there's as many theories and mantras about batteries as there are about Lord Lucan, the Holy Grail and how to pronounce chorizo. However it's not without merit and I cannot back it up with any figures. As previously stated hard and fast comparative data is thin on the ground. Sure I don't think your 50% 'industry standard' is wrong, just think it's more about having enough juice in your 'marine/leisure' batteries to start your barge than live in a real world 'off grid' scenario.

Cheers Paul
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'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SMA SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 9kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
Justme
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« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2016, 10:14:31 PM »


The number of cycles will be vastly more than your 2000 guestimate.

But the kWh in and kWh out would remain the same, well that's the theory and it's one that I subscribe to personally. Sure the batteries don't last as long in time but the amount stored remains the same. Means you can buy a smaller bank I guess. Not saying it's 'gospel' as there's as many theories and mantras about batteries as there are about Lord Lucan, the Holy Grail and how to pronounce chorizo. However it's not without merit and I cannot back it up with any figures. As previously stated hard and fast comparative data is thin on the ground. Sure I don't think your 50% 'industry standard' is wrong, just think it's more about having enough juice in your 'marine/leisure' batteries to start your barge than live in a real world 'off grid' scenario.

Cheers Paul

Info from a respected expert (designer of the Smartgauge) in the field specifically for the leisure market not the ability to start engines.

I think he was in here for a very short while.
Sadly he is not an active member of the other forum anymore.

Not sure if it applies to 2v cells as much as it does battery packs.
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billi
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« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2016, 03:10:46 AM »

simple maths  ,   if i  have a look at the cycle graphs

sure theory too , but mine is 12 years old now

sure too,  9 month per year ,  fully charged  every day , and 3 month in winter only occasionally

am still here, on the forum to say those  realities , and thanks to Frotter,  who told me about forklifts

my smart gauge  advice is   ................. get enough PV ......  Grin


Billi









* staplerbatt.jpg (142.68 KB, 688x511 - viewed 360 times.)
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camillitech
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« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2016, 06:45:34 AM »


my smart gauge  advice is   ................. get enough PV ......  Grin


Billi









Unless you live on the West coast of Scotland, then get a turnip too  fingers crossed!

Total PV generation for December 2016 to date from a 4.75kW array = just under 10kWh  Cry

Total wind generation from a 2.5/3.2kW turnip for same period = 203kWh PV  Cool

Not every location is the same and PV alone is not the answer everywhere.
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billi
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« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2016, 12:44:48 PM »

 sure paul  ,but  winter is  short  seen over the year  , but sure  battery care,  needed then , in absent of PV

but Stevie  
Quote
I'd framed my budget on how much 4 x 110ah leisure batteries would cost, which was a fart over 200,

On that base , nobody can give u an advice , and u should  overthink  the  design ,  a ca  4.5 kWh  lead battery,  is not matching a 4000 watt PV at all !


Billi
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 12:46:47 PM by billi » Logged

1.6 kw and 2.4 kw   PV array  , Outback MX 60 and FM80 charge controller  ,24 volt 1600 AH Battery ,6 Kw Victron inverter charger, 1.1 kw high head hydro turbine as a back up generator , 5 kw woodburner, 36 solar tubes with 360 l water tank, 1.6 kw  windturbine
knighty
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« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2016, 01:27:12 PM »

Just being conversational, what are the dimensions of the cells? It's over my budget (we've just found out we've got another happy accident on the way!) but i could make my 24v block, my friends 12v set and sell on/scrap the rest (or hoard them to make a second bank at a latter date).
I'll take some photos for you :-)
don't worry about leading me on and then not wanting them... I just feel bad scraping good cells
24cells total, 12 for you, 6 for your mate, 6 to scrap sounds pretty perfect, means you can pick out the best cells and scrap the worst ones

photos!

the cells are a little tricky to get to without moving some stuff around (I've been tidying up and put stuff in front of them) so I took two pictures of the actual cells, and then photos with a tape measure of the cells on the forklift, which are the same size... should give you an idea of the size of a 24v pack :-)

actual cells (click for bigger pics)





forklift pack







(p.s. ignore the water ontop of my forklift pack, the cells came overfilled, so as they bubbled little bits of acid splashed out... I've been intentionally a bit sloppy filling the cells (now that the level dropped) to dilute the acit a bit))
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 01:29:18 PM by knighty » Logged
Stevieboy118
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« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2016, 04:15:01 PM »

What are the connections on the cells? The pics are a bit blurry to make out if it's a bolt or some other joint.
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Stevieboy118
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« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2016, 04:35:05 PM »

but Stevie  
Quote
I'd framed my budget on how much 4 x 110ah leisure batteries would cost, which was a fart over 200,

On that base , nobody can give u an advice , and u should  overthink  the  design ,  a ca  4.5 kWh  lead battery,  is not matching a 4000 watt PV at all !


Billi

The one thing i have plenty of experience of is going at a project half cocked, i thought i'd ask for advice for a change Wink
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RIT
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« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2016, 07:50:56 PM »


No you misunderstand.

You use the same bats that can do 80% / 1500 cycles but use the at 50% SOC / DOD.

The number of cycles will be vastly more than your 2000 guestimate.

Not a guestimate, that figure came from the quoted life of PZS batteries sold by a UK seller. All these numbers are what the manufacturer states rather than the possible life if looked after.

There is also the issue that different providers use different C ratings for their DoD ratings, so it's very hard to compare marketing values.
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knighty
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« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2016, 11:58:25 PM »

What are the connections on the cells? The pics are a bit blurry to make out if it's a bolt or some other joint.

they're welded on

you'd need to screw into the posts to hold some copper bar down to join the cells

iirc biff has done his with copper pipe he squashed flat with a hammer?  (might not have been biff...?)


or... the forklift guys use what are pretty much just jump leads onto a spare cell as a power supply and weld with the other end of the leads... so you could do that :-)
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Scruff
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« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2016, 09:18:49 PM »

Copper flat bar
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V
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« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2016, 05:07:48 PM »

I bought my FLA's from Paul Byrne and he has been support above and beyond. My batteries were badly mistreated by my installer, Sungift,  who didn't tighten the connectors on all of them.  But they have recovered and have come back to full health after 2 years of being only partially connected.

http://solarwindturbinebatteries.co.uk

He sells used batteries sometimes too.

V


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Stevieboy118
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« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2016, 10:39:25 PM »

What are the connections on the cells? The pics are a bit blurry to make out if it's a bolt or some other joint.

they're welded on

you'd need to screw into the posts to hold some copper bar down to join the cells

iirc biff has done his with copper pipe he squashed flat with a hammer?  (might not have been biff...?)


or... the forklift guys use what are pretty much just jump leads onto a spare cell as a power supply and weld with the other end of the leads... so you could do that :-)

Drill, tap, bolt. Job jobbed.



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4kW pv (16x250+good-we inverter)
Wood burner
Pile-o-tatty-batteries
107L water tank solar dump
Anything else the wife will let me play with.
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