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Author Topic: The future House of Renewable Energies in North-Scotland  (Read 14341 times)
biff
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« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2017, 11:54:28 AM »

Hello again Jean-Louis,
                    There is an easy way to investigate this that does not incur great expense or technological know how,
 You can build an inexpensive model from a gallon bucket and a plasterers skim mixer. or even a smaller one from a pint jug and an egg beater. You can drop a temp sensor probe down into the liquid and set the thing mixing for a few hours to see if the temperature in the water changes,
 You get certain chemicals that can be added to water that rise in temperature when turbulence is introduced to the liquid and maybe that might assist the experiment but water on it,s own will simply go nowhere. M,s contribution of using the turbine to power an electrically heated element is as sound a proposition as you will get and will be guaranteed to work...
  Navitron always looks kindly on any efforts to think outside the box. We sometimes get members joining up to poke fun at us with weird schemes but that is not a problem. We are duty bound to still listen and take it on board. There have been a couple of members who came to us with ideas that were attacked (for want of as better word) but two years later their ideas are now playing a major part in both off-grid installations and On Grid power distribution networks in OZZ and elsewhere.
  All you can do, if you are serious, is to build your model and check it for temperature differences. Don,t worry, I have been captured and haunted by ideas of my own that cost me dear, in terms of both finance and time before I had let go. In one way it is a gift, in the other it is a curse but that is how it is,
                                                Biff
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« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2017, 02:10:29 PM »

Hi JLP, 

Thanks for sharing your dream with us, obviously with so much water involved it was the best type of dream any man could wish for !

Coming to the point, I would suggest adding a generator attached to the windmill main shaft via a clutch, that way if you end up with a basement full of boiling water during a Scottish mid winter wind fest you could disengage the stirrer and engage the generator so you can have some lights on.

Your writing style seems strangely familiar  fight









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« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2017, 03:50:16 PM »

Indeed Westie,
              I did notice that but I don,t mind in the slightest. I was waiting for the hole to get big enough.
                                             Biff
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Jean-Louis PAPEL
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« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2017, 04:02:48 PM »

Hi Jean-Louis, but why would you build a house that needed that much energy in the first place? It is quite possible to design out the need for so much by the use of sufficient levels of insulation.

Also have you modelled how much noise would be created, inside the house, by the stirrers?

Hi Ted,

I have tried and work out the heat losses of the building using the actual sizes and characteristics of the materials. You will find all the details of the calculations in chapter 8 of my blog, but as a summary, I have made some assumptions for a real case simulation in Dunkerque.

In order to minimize the heat losses I have decided to remove half of the windows as they appear on the architectural views: 15 are remaining instead of 30 in the initial project.

I have planned external insulation of the walls with 8cm polystyrene foam, and the same thickness under the roof.
Regarding the air renewal, I have assumed 40% of the total living volume should be changed every hour. That corresponds to about 30% of the global heat losses. This is because it is used as a public building with hopefully large number of visitors.



This corresponds to about 1500 W/°C heat losses. When worked out with the meteo conditions in Dunkerque, it amounts to 40,000 kWh over the year.
In fact what is important is the month-per-month heat flows: wind power and solar power inputs, building heat-losses and also seasonal tank heat losses. This underground tank is insulated by a 1-meter thick wall of recycled polystyrene packagings crushed, put in place and compressed locally.

You will find the month per month heat flows in the same chapter 8 for Dunkerque. I could not find the corresponding data for North Scotland (in particular the month-per-month Weibull probabilities for the wind).

Anyhow these calculations are preliminary and need further efforts if this project comes to reality. If a better insulation is targetted as you propose, then the volume of the seasonal water tank could be decreased accordingly. There are also many variables of adjustment like the diameter of the windmill for instance.

Regarding the noise in the building, two remarks:

The windmill is low rotational speed per design due to the high number of blades (a high torque is required and high speed is not necessary like for the electrical generators). The consequence is that the noise is smoother and of lower level than repetitive 3-blades high speed generators.

The water stirrer is maintained in position by a large number of inflatable air shock-absorbers, as shown in the following drawings. Sorry it increases again the complexity of the solution, but they could be replaced by rigid fixings in situations where the noise is not an issue.














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Jean-Louis PAPEL
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« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2017, 04:17:51 PM »

Hi JLP, 

Thanks for sharing your dream with us, obviously with so much water involved it was the best type of dream any man could wish for !

Coming to the point, I would suggest adding a generator attached to the windmill main shaft via a clutch, that way if you end up with a basement full of boiling water during a Scottish mid winter wind fest you could disengage the stirrer and engage the generator so you can have some lights on.

Your writing style seems strangely familiar  fight

Hi Westie,

Sorry, your idea could seem attractive, but it does not work ! You cannot use a low-speed windmill to generate electricity. You would need a tremendous gear box.

... and you cannot control the resistive torque applied on the windmill shaft to maintain its optimum operating point.

PS: I already mentionned that I am just a froggy French and do not master the tongue of Shakespeare.










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Jean-Louis PAPEL
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« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2017, 04:25:10 PM »

Afternoon JL, I can see no reason why a building cannot be both sustainable and beautiful.  They are not exclusive what is defined as beautiful is also influenced by the eye is used to seeing.


I suppose you refer to my mention to use this solution for a community building instead of the "House of the Renewable Energies".

In that situation the incompatibility is not between sustainable and beautiful, but rather between beautiful and economical ...
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Westie
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« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2017, 05:34:53 PM »

Hi JLP, 

Thanks for sharing your dream with us, obviously with so much water involved it was the best type of dream any man could wish for !

Coming to the point, I would suggest adding a generator attached to the windmill main shaft via a clutch, that way if you end up with a basement full of boiling water during a Scottish mid winter wind fest you could disengage the stirrer and engage the generator so you can have some lights on.

Your writing style seems strangely familiar  fight

Hi Westie,

Sorry, your idea could seem attractive, but it does not work ! You cannot use a low-speed windmill to generate electricity. You would need a tremendous gear box.

... and you cannot control the resistive torque applied on the windmill shaft to maintain its optimum operating point.

PS: I already mentionned that I am just a froggy French and do not master the tongue of Shakespeare.











I see your point but I would suggest using a Low voltage DC generator, feeding a low voltage battery bank on float, feeding a low voltage LED lighting circuit. A shunt field generator controller should be able to maintain a steady 12,24,48 VDC output.  I see your point about having to maintain a resistive load large enough to govern the turbine speed, so the generator should run with the main shaft permanently. This arrangement will still allow you to continue stirring during high winds and your basement tanks to boil, so you could seal the basements and route the steam to a secondary steam turbine generator.



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« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2017, 06:20:55 PM »

anyone remember channel 4's Equinox program  stir

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« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2017, 07:04:24 PM »

"I have planned external insulation of the walls with 8cm polystyrene foam, and the same thickness under the roof."

I have 400 mm of polystyrene under my floor and 450 mm of blown cellulose under my roof. My walls are 457 mm of straw. Your numbers seem to have a zero missing.

Ted pointed to an xkcd page, but it seems a rare failure. Why would cavitation increase heat loss from the system? Heat is not lost from the system by increased surface area when the surfaces are internal to the system and the volume the surfaces enclose are a near vacuum!
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« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2017, 08:51:58 AM »

The water stirrer is maintained in position by a large number of inflatable air shock-absorbers, as shown in the following drawings. Sorry it increases again the complexity of the solution, but they could be replaced by rigid fixings in situations where the noise is not an issue.
I'm still lost!

Why would anyone build such a complicated system just to generate low value heat. Why wouldn't they spend far less on a wind turbine to generate high value electricity, which could be used on a 1:1 ratio to generate heat if needed, or on a 1:5 ratio for heat from a heat pump, or used to displace expensive electricity during the non-heating periods?

I can't get past the issue that this seems like a very expensive way to devalue the output of a WT.

Could I buy a car, attach a pulley belt to the drive wheel and use that to stir water ...... whilst paying taxi fees to get around?
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biff
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« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2017, 09:30:40 AM »

Yes M,
     I can see what you mean but you must appreciate the curve in the thinking.
 One could spend their entire life on such a subject, Battling against the odds of success while the answer just manages to stay beyond the fingertips.
 It was after all, a "Dream". Not so much a vision but a dream and we are all entitled to a dream or two.
 It is nice of him to share with us.
                                            Biff
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« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2017, 02:33:09 PM »

The water stirrer is maintained in position by a large number of inflatable air shock-absorbers, as shown in the following drawings. Sorry it increases again the complexity of the solution, but they could be replaced by rigid fixings in situations where the noise is not an issue.
I'm still lost!

Why would anyone build such a complicated system just to generate low value heat. Why wouldn't they spend far less on a wind turbine to generate high value electricity, which could be used on a 1:1 ratio to generate heat if needed, or on a 1:5 ratio for heat from a heat pump, or used to displace expensive electricity during the non-heating periods?

I can't get past the issue that this seems like a very expensive way to devalue the output of a WT.

Could I buy a car, attach a pulley belt to the drive wheel and use that to stir water ...... whilst paying taxi fees to get around?

How is it complicated, you just splash about some water in a large well insulated tank and make a huge heat store.  When you think of the lengths we normally go to to move energy into a store this idea does seem simple!  How hot is the question, well I haven't heard of a boiling lower lake at Dinorwig following generation, but they do have temperature spikes high enough to put fish off spawning  wackoteapot
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« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2017, 03:04:25 PM »

I haven't heard of a boiling lower lake at Dinorwig following generation, but they do have temperature spikes high enough to put fish off spawning  wackoteapot
Do you have a source for that? All I could find was
https://naturalresources.wales/about-us/news-and-events/our-position/llyn-padarn/?lang=en
Which says:
Quote
The effects of occasional water temperature “spikes”, caused by water releases from Llyn Peris, on spawning and egg development have also been studied. This showed that the spawning grounds are generally upstream of these releases and do not experience any increase in temperature.
The article does describe reductions in spawning grounds associated with the construction of Dinorwig, but that's for other reasons.

Do you have something different?
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« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2017, 09:07:10 AM »

Ted,

Based on that,  as an iced coffee drinker I must be more environmentally friendly?

 stir

 tumble
Paul
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« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2017, 11:55:35 AM »

http://www.balas.org/BALAS_2013_proceedings_data/data/documents/p639212.pdf

Quote
This study determines the carbon footprint of the supply chain of Costa Rican coffee exported to Europe, using best practice methodology to calculate greenhouse gas emissions. Overall it was found that the total carbon footprint across the entire supply chain is 4.98kg CO2e/kg green coffee. The carbon footprint of the processes in Costa Rica to produce 1 kilogram of green coffee is 1.93 kgCO2e. The processes within Europe generate 3.05CO2e/kg green coffee. This carbon footprint is considered as “very high intensity”.
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