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Author Topic: Car battery terminals  (Read 4689 times)
Greenbeast
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« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2017, 11:32:01 AM »

I bought one of these. It is made of chocolate wrapped in tinfoil and would only last 3 days if used professionally, but for home/hobby use it does the job.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Tube-Terminals-Lugs-Battery-Cable-Wire-Crimping-Force-Hydraulic-Crimper-Tool-Kit-/332046441820?hash=item4d4f829d5c:g:baIAAOSwf-VWbn8Z



Yes i bought the same, figured it would stand up to all the connections i'm likely to need
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Greenbeast
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« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2017, 11:34:32 AM »

Use a plumbers pipe cutter myself on SWA, not much scope for improvement on that for occasional use I think, very controlled and accurate.
Just to add, soldering is a total no-no into crimp terminals, the cable will work harden and break at the joint if there is any movement at all.

i have read that too, i doubted i could apply the heat suffuciently without melting the insulation, so did not even attempt it, but copper anneals in heat and hardens with work, so surely heating would anneal it not harden it?
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Scruff
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« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2017, 03:13:28 PM »

And whilst we're on the subject of 'proper tools' what do others do to neatly cut SWA steel armour? I used to spend ages neatly 'half cutting' the steel wires with a hacksaw then bending them.

That is the proper tool Paul.

Any other peeps any ideas, and is there a tool for just stripping back regular outer insulation on other cables neatly without accidentally cutting the conductor insulation?

Automatic wire strippers



Usually they accept from 2.5mm˛ T&E down to 0.5mm˛ single core.
Above 1.5mm˛ TRS is usually too roundy for them.

This is my weapon of choice



It does everything once you get the knack of it. I love letting people borrow it and first attempt they always go straight through the conductors  hysteria

i have read that too, i doubted i could apply the heat suffuciently without melting the insulation, so did not even attempt it, but copper anneals in heat and hardens with work, so surely heating would anneal it not harden it?

Gas flame does the job and plumber solder. Yurp it'll melt the insulation but not so badly a bittov heat shrink can't save the day.





Yeah heat anneals it alright, then sticking it on the back on an alternator causes it to work harden in service over time.
It's not a great way to do it to be honest but like most bad practices it works until it doesn't.
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Scruff
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« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2017, 03:56:53 PM »

I'm with you on this Fionn but it does seem to be a subject (like batteries) that gets people very 'hot under the collar'.

Batteries, split charge methods, terminations...

Thankfully we can scientifically test them all...people don't though is the problem.



Easy jerry-rig a test apparatus.
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Fionn
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« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2017, 05:04:53 PM »

I'm with you on this Fionn but it does seem to be a subject (like batteries) that gets people very 'hot under the collar'.
I don't believe there's any debate about it really. Soldered connections to stranded wires are not suitable for movement. Aircraft wiring looms etc are all crimped for this very reason.
It certainly works and you can achieve a solid low resistance connection but it will always fail eventually with vibration or movement.
For stationary battery cables etc I'd imagine it would work fine but I've never seen it done myself (soldered lugs that is)
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Scruff
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« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2017, 05:49:16 PM »

Yurp.
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camillitech
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« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2017, 07:06:05 PM »

I'm with you on this Fionn but it does seem to be a subject (like batteries) that gets people very 'hot under the collar'.
I don't believe there's any debate about it really. Soldered connections to stranded wires are not suitable for movement. Aircraft wiring looms etc are all crimped for this very reason.
It certainly works and you can achieve a solid low resistance connection but it will always fail eventually with vibration or movement.
For stationary battery cables etc I'd imagine it would work fine but I've never seen it done myself (soldered lugs that is)

That's always been my opinion, 'if it's good enough for the space shuttle it's good enough for me' but old Clockman  used to solder everything, even his SWA jointing crimps, down a trench!!! And you just try and convince him otherwise, my mate 'Willie Eyre' is just the same and they're not alone  facepalm
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Scruff
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« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2017, 09:26:23 PM »

I think people think soldering must be better because it's more difficult and time-consuming. Like the reassuringly expensive phenomenon a lot of manufacturers take where you pay more for the advertising and warranty than the product you are buying.
As for the resistance argument well you're talking ±100μΩ. As for water ingress for marine applications; solder will seal a lug and at the same time make the insulation sloppy, either way the correct approach is glue lined heat shrink over the joint.
As far as I've investigated (through destructive testing) soldering and crimping are of equal mechanical strength up to lugs where crimping starts forging ahead.
In terms of applications where movement/vibration is to be expected every vehicle manufacturer in the world crimps because solder has a significantly higher fail rate.
As a personal rule of thumb if it's a circuit board I solder, everything else I crimp unless I haven't got any crimps/access or the right tools.
Crimps beat solder, solder beats bad crimps.

In the cases of butt connections they're both wrong, the right thing to do would be run a new uninterrupted conductor.

Hope I haven't started a Holy War...that's just my opinion I'm not arguing or trying to convince anyone else.  surrender
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Fionn
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« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2017, 11:05:49 PM »

All very reasonable. The only place i've seen solder used on flexible conductors is at circuit boards as Scruff says or on power connectors on cables for RC aircraft. However RC aircraft aren't built to incredibly exacting standards anyway and in any case the cable tends to be super fine stranded cable with silicone insulation. It's like a wet noodle to handle so would be likely to absorb any vibration. Added to this both sides of the connector would have similar cable so it lasts quite well. I've still seen plenty of them snap off eventually however.
I think the resistance dreamers must be thinking of the increased surface area of the joint or something which intuitively makes a bit of sense. Unfortunately the mechanical downsides far outweigh any perceived or real advantage.
Of course it's also a lot faster and easier to crimp and less nasty fumes to boot!
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Tombo
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« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2017, 05:10:37 AM »

 I don't like crimps, in the damp you get corrosion between the different metals.  The good ones are tinned copper so the effect is minimal, yet apparent.  The aluminium ones are terrible.
 
I think crimps are used because they are quick and easy, but they are rubbish in damp environments.
 
I am guilty of soldering everything, I can.  I guess this is because I have come across 100 failed crimps to every single failed solder joint.

  I should add that leaded solder has more flex than the lead free stuff.   Damn those Bureaucrats from protecting our health and environment at the expense of our solder joint flexibility.
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Scruff
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« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2017, 05:24:30 AM »

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Fionn
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« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2017, 08:49:06 AM »

If there was an issue with well made crimp terminations they wouldn't be in widespread use.
I have a small diesel car, all the battery and starter cable terminations are crimped and they're still perfect after 19 years of (severe) vibration and movement.
I so solder some automotive stuff due to not having the appropriate crimps on hand, and the fact that a lot of motor factor type crimps are truly rubbish quality.
Only ever in the middle of a wiring loom though, not onto anything fixed.
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Greenbeast
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« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2017, 09:52:38 AM »

Good discourse, happy to be educated Smiley
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Greenbeast
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« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2017, 09:55:07 AM »

on the subject then, i bought a neilson ratchet crimper for 'standard' red/yellow/blue connectors (after struggling for years with hand pressure only ones), however i only get a good crimp on the yellow size, despite going to full travel on all three.
So can someone recommend a good crimper for those connectors that won't break the bank?
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Iain
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« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2017, 10:29:26 AM »


Hi
Quote
i bought a neilson ratchet crimper for 'standard' red/yellow/blue connectors (after struggling for years with hand pressure only ones), however i only get a good crimp on the yellow size, despite going to full travel on all three.

On the ones I have there is an adjustment that determines the pressure and release point on the ratchet crimp tool.(i think there is a release screw and an adjustable cam to set up)
Just check yours doesn't just need adjustment first.

Iain
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