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Author Topic: Heat Pump Install @ Courtiestown  (Read 46070 times)
linesrg
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« Reply #135 on: June 15, 2018, 01:55:15 PM »

Good Afternoon All,

What fascinates me about the ongoing aeration issue is that the amount of water in the system isn't an awful lot.

It can't be a great deal more than 26metres of what 22mm pipe, let's be generous and call it 30mtrs;

30 x π x 0.0112 = 30 x 3.1415927 (or thereabouts) x 0.00121 = 0.0114m3.

12ltrs of fluid maximum. Just how difficult can it be?

If it were me I'd resort to a funnel and top it up from the highest point with the circulating pump on the minimum setting.

Regards

Richard
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1.28kW on a Lorentz ETATRACK1000 + 1.44kW/ SB3000TL-21 (FIT), 1.28kW/ SB1700 (ROO/FIT). CTC GSi12 heat pump/Ecosol/Flowbox 8010e/Gledhill ASL0085 EHS/3off Navitron 4720AL Solar ET & Immersun T1060/T1070/T1090. 3.375kW/ SMA SB3600TL-21 and a Sunny Island 4.4M-12 c/w 15.2kWh battery and a Renault Zoe.
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« Reply #136 on: June 15, 2018, 02:22:08 PM »

In a geekier place, I watercool computers, and you would be surprised just how hard it can be to remove the air from those.. 1/2" ID tubing, generally only 2-3 ft, the cpu and gpu blocks and the radiator dont hold much volume either... Bleeding a closed loop with a T piece at the top takes FOREVER and requires slowing the pump speed right down as low as you can, and introducing artificial restrictions to further slow the water.

These days we tend to use a reservoir before the pump, both exit and return to reservoir at the bottom with an upright divider between them (which has some holes but is mostly solid. Water level is  higher than this divider and it works, slowing the water, inducing turbulance and forcing most of the water to go up before coming back down again for the exit from the reservoir. Bubbles zoom around, get to the res and tend to settle out, a loop that previously took days to bleed is now nearly totally bled in an hour.

No idea if its any help in this context, probably not... But thought it interesting.
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Westie
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« Reply #137 on: June 15, 2018, 02:29:02 PM »

Good Afternoon All,

What fascinates me about the ongoing aeration issue is that the amount of water in the system isn't an awful lot.

It can't be a great deal more than 26metres of what 22mm pipe, let's be generous and call it 30mtrs;

30 x π x 0.0112 = 30 x 3.1415927 (or thereabouts) x 0.00121 = 0.0114m3.

12ltrs of fluid maximum. Just how difficult can it be?

If it were me I'd resort to a funnel and top it up from the highest point with the circulating pump on the minimum setting.

Regards

Richard

I don't understand why you have this problem....  I have 2 x 30tube 47mm manifolds, the capacity is 6L.  I've replaced the fluid every 5 yrs and have always bled it before changing it to see how much air is in it but there almost none.  I have two manual bleeds at the flow side of each manifold. BTW your system is pressurised type isn't it...?  ie. it has an accumulator? That's where you fill it from and you should pressurise it to about 1 bar cold. I use a garden sprayer to fill it. If you tried to fill it as you described you wouldn't have any pressure in the system... the pressure effectively raises the BP of the fluid.
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todthedog
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« Reply #138 on: June 15, 2018, 03:52:23 PM »

With Westie, always topped up and repressurised with an adapted garden sprayer fitted with a screw on adaptor for the system. I pumped Mrs T looked at the pressure gauge (small space).  A genuine 10 minute job.
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Tinbum
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« Reply #139 on: June 15, 2018, 05:18:41 PM »

My system has a very small leak, which I haven't bothered to fix as I'm redoing it all in the house referb/extension and it stagnated the other day. I have a spirovent, which is near the top of the system but not at the top, and all I did was re-pressure with some more fluid to about 1 bar while the pump was  running. It was about a 15min job and all's running fine again.
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« Reply #140 on: June 15, 2018, 06:42:01 PM »

Good Evening All,

Interesting comments.

Yes I appreciate that topping up my system using a funnel from the highest point will not pressurise the system.

I've seen a YouTube video showing the use of a simple hand operated sprayer. It would certainly be cheaper than a Rothenberger RP30.

I'm reaching that point when I conclude the 'experts' aren't so expert and that it is time for me to intervene.

It is also time to make a follow up posting on https://rif.est.org.uk as I was requested to do so some time back - a case of light the blue touch paper and retire to a safe distance.

Regards

Richard
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1.28kW on a Lorentz ETATRACK1000 + 1.44kW/ SB3000TL-21 (FIT), 1.28kW/ SB1700 (ROO/FIT). CTC GSi12 heat pump/Ecosol/Flowbox 8010e/Gledhill ASL0085 EHS/3off Navitron 4720AL Solar ET & Immersun T1060/T1070/T1090. 3.375kW/ SMA SB3600TL-21 and a Sunny Island 4.4M-12 c/w 15.2kWh battery and a Renault Zoe.
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« Reply #141 on: June 16, 2018, 01:17:22 PM »

Good Afternoon All,

Last night I ordered 10ltrs of solar fluid and today I bought a 5ltr sprayer from Homebase and got a 1/4 to 1/2" BSP and then 1/2 to 3/4" BSP adaptor from the Plumb Centre so I can now attach a washing machine hose from the sprayer to the Solar ET pumping unit.

When the fluid arrives I can get on with bleeding this system myself (hopefully).

Regards

Richard
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1.28kW on a Lorentz ETATRACK1000 + 1.44kW/ SB3000TL-21 (FIT), 1.28kW/ SB1700 (ROO/FIT). CTC GSi12 heat pump/Ecosol/Flowbox 8010e/Gledhill ASL0085 EHS/3off Navitron 4720AL Solar ET & Immersun T1060/T1070/T1090. 3.375kW/ SMA SB3600TL-21 and a Sunny Island 4.4M-12 c/w 15.2kWh battery and a Renault Zoe.
todthedog
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« Reply #142 on: June 16, 2018, 03:11:18 PM »

Good luck Richard

This may be grannies and egg sucking,. but when you are ready to connect up, get ready to spay and get the liquid right up to the end of your connecting tube before attaching it to the system otherwise you will inject a whole load of air . Make sure your valve to the system is closed and the pump in non spraying mode before disconecting.
Sounds stupid but I know someone who decided to disconnect without doing it. It was eveidently messy! angel

I always assume my level of incompetence and pressurise to slightly higher than required, assuming that I will inject a little air and this will vent in a couple of hours and the system pressure drop slightly back to the required level.

Hope that it goes well.

tod
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linesrg
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« Reply #143 on: June 16, 2018, 03:21:03 PM »

Tod,

I usually try and be very logical about such activities but even still have mis-connected desulfators even when the leads are deliberately coloured red and black.

The advice is appreciated, there certainly isn't any point injecting more air. When I was up there determining if a washing machine hose would fit (it does) I was admiring the air bubbles in the pump flow tell-tale.

It's going to be at least a week.

Regards

Richard
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1.28kW on a Lorentz ETATRACK1000 + 1.44kW/ SB3000TL-21 (FIT), 1.28kW/ SB1700 (ROO/FIT). CTC GSi12 heat pump/Ecosol/Flowbox 8010e/Gledhill ASL0085 EHS/3off Navitron 4720AL Solar ET & Immersun T1060/T1070/T1090. 3.375kW/ SMA SB3600TL-21 and a Sunny Island 4.4M-12 c/w 15.2kWh battery and a Renault Zoe.
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« Reply #144 on: June 18, 2018, 10:35:55 PM »

Hallo Richard,

I would always recommend that a gate valve rather than an air bleed is fitted to the highest point you can access on the pipework, this way with a couple of fittings you can connect a pump up garden sprayer onto the valve and force fluid into the circuit and also bleed air back into the sprayer tank. Pump the fluid backwards and forwards a few times and all your air troubles will be over. With a gate valve rather than an air bleed (no matter how fancy) you have complete control of air and fluid into and out of your system. Another good option is Antmans air bleed design, with this you can bleed the highest point of the system from within the roof space. I have both the above mentioned items on my system and I can guarantee getting the system full and completely air free in about half an hour.

Desp
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todthedog
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« Reply #145 on: June 19, 2018, 06:22:13 AM »

Great advice Desp. Grin
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Iain
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« Reply #146 on: June 19, 2018, 06:46:05 AM »

Hi Richard
I haven't read back through all the thread so apologies if you have already checked this.
I fitted a 22mm upstand just inside the loft on the return pipework with a manual bleed valve on. Although it is about 6" below the top of the system I have never had and issues getting rid of air after a fluid change. I also fitted a 22mm upstand just on the discharge side of the pump to pick up any air as it leaves the pump. I also have a non return valve fitted to stop convection circulation at night. I fitted a bypass valve next to this just to use to aid venting.
Worth checking your expansion vessel pre charge pressure. A lot come with 3 bar pressure which is too high for a solar system. This high pressure stops them working an you end up loosing fluid through the pressure relief valve as the EV can't accept any expansion.
Set the Precharge pressure to 0.2.bar less than the working pressure.
Mine set to 0.8 bar and system runs at 1 bar.
The 2 up stands are about 300mm high and are very effective and simple.
After an initial vent I always check a week later and only get a very minor amount of air out.
Been fitted and working for 11 years now. The only issue I had was the precharge being set too high. Took me ages to find that. Worth checking first.
With no system pressure you need 0.2 bar less than your working pressure in the expansion vessel on the shrader valve on the expansion vessel
Iain
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« Reply #147 on: June 19, 2018, 09:03:47 AM »

Good Morning All,

Thanks very much for your input guys it is much appreciated.

I have submitted your suggestions to my installer on the basis your methods clearly appear to achieve the desired result and theirs haven't.

At this point I intend doing something myself before allowing the installer back on site.

Regards

Richard
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1.28kW on a Lorentz ETATRACK1000 + 1.44kW/ SB3000TL-21 (FIT), 1.28kW/ SB1700 (ROO/FIT). CTC GSi12 heat pump/Ecosol/Flowbox 8010e/Gledhill ASL0085 EHS/3off Navitron 4720AL Solar ET & Immersun T1060/T1070/T1090. 3.375kW/ SMA SB3600TL-21 and a Sunny Island 4.4M-12 c/w 15.2kWh battery and a Renault Zoe.
titan
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« Reply #148 on: June 19, 2018, 12:31:35 PM »

I am sure this thread would be of interest to people with solar heating problems but would struggle to find it in a thread about a heat pump install.
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« Reply #149 on: June 19, 2018, 02:24:40 PM »

Good Afternoon All,

I would have to agree with titan iro people finding the Solar ET part of this meandering thread. I had decided that as the Solar ET was essentially a CTC add-on to the heat pump system to continue the challenges I was facing with it on the heat pump thread.

All further postings will be on a new thread and, if possible, I'll see how easy it is to extract postings from this thread and transfer them.

Administrator advice on the latter welcome..................

Regards

Richard
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1.28kW on a Lorentz ETATRACK1000 + 1.44kW/ SB3000TL-21 (FIT), 1.28kW/ SB1700 (ROO/FIT). CTC GSi12 heat pump/Ecosol/Flowbox 8010e/Gledhill ASL0085 EHS/3off Navitron 4720AL Solar ET & Immersun T1060/T1070/T1090. 3.375kW/ SMA SB3600TL-21 and a Sunny Island 4.4M-12 c/w 15.2kWh battery and a Renault Zoe.
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