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Author Topic: second battery bank and stuff  (Read 3252 times)
eabadger
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« on: May 08, 2017, 09:00:12 AM »

have read other posts about combining banks and am in the same position, i have a large 1000ah fla 24v forklift pack and a smaller one at 650ah both c5 rate, the second pack was kindoff a freebie as lots seem to be.
so what i have amassed is two victron 3000va multiplus's 1x lf 3000kw W7 inverter, 3x morningstar mppt 60 one tristar 45, soon 3 1600w ish arrays.
so in summer i think the tilting two arrays will keep main battery bank full so third through a diode spliter can charge smaller battery pack? this can be disabled in winter maybe.
i have two large swa feeding the house, currently one is generator connected only and feeds immersion in dhw tank very soon to be a ashp water heater and soon to be connected to the second new multi.
so thinking about, what if i use the ac2 on main victron to bring on the W7 inverter (ac2 only live when generator fed) then feed output of the W7 in to mains input on multi 2? which will paralel charge the main bank whilst the W7 charges the smaller bank, i can then combine the the two if needed when generator off?

also can i use the diversion mode of the tristar 45 to charge the second battery bank? so when first bank full it dumps to second? and brings on ashp?

just a few thoughts going round my head, i also have the morningstar control relay setup, if you lot can think of any other ideas.

steve
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 11:48:03 AM by eabadger » Logged

1600w PV main array at 24v, excide 2v 1000a forklift cells now x 2, 320w PV secondary array at 12v. Enfield 1944 ex RAF 5.6kw diesel genset (now in pieces, big ends gone), Petter AC1 28v diesel charging set at 2.8kw.
1kw wind turbine.
26kw wood stove back boiler to underfloor heating and dhw
knighty
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« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2017, 03:35:22 PM »

I'd just join them both together in parallel from the start

they'll both be at the same voltage/DOD

means you'll have to work a little harder to give them a full charge now and again... but it's not really different from doing that to each pack separately ?



in my eye's it's better to have two packs working gently than have one working hard and another doing nothing
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eabadger
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« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2017, 06:26:07 PM »

i thought this was a big no no? surely you would only get benefit of lowest power one? and kill higher power one by under charging?
sure i read that when first looking at this, i would sooner keep separate just in case and to give redundancy.

will dumping excess power with tristar in to second bank work?

steve
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 06:28:02 PM by eabadger » Logged

1600w PV main array at 24v, excide 2v 1000a forklift cells now x 2, 320w PV secondary array at 12v. Enfield 1944 ex RAF 5.6kw diesel genset (now in pieces, big ends gone), Petter AC1 28v diesel charging set at 2.8kw.
1kw wind turbine.
26kw wood stove back boiler to underfloor heating and dhw
camillitech
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« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2017, 07:25:18 PM »

i thought this was a big no no? surely you would only get benefit of lowest power one? and kill higher power one by under charging?




Absolutely Steve, you will simply feck your good bank. I have seen this many times and my advice is always to sell the fecked/dubious bank and concentrate on yer good one. A bit like the lunacy of carrying a spare outboard motor for when the good one fails. Having said that I'm in the same boat myself and am trying to incorparate a 10 year old set of forklift cells into my current set up, not because it makes any sense but simply cos I already have them. Once I finally figure out how to do it I'll let you know how I get on  Grin Ole Scruff has given me some good ideas and if you ever need one of these.



I'm your man  Grin
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http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
eabadger
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« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2017, 07:43:15 PM »

hi, in summer i think i will have too much pv, so third array can do the smaller iffy bank, the second victron generator input i can feed from the powerstar w7 inverter which is conected (will be) to the second bank, in winter genset on will charge two victrons one through the feed through on w7 the w7 will then also charge the second bank.
big one is, can i use the tristar diversion mode, to dump to the second battery instead of a big resistor?
going to give it a go unless someones comes up with reason why not?
i had not seen the ac2 output on the victrons till yesterday, so this will bring on the cheapy inverter, which although thirsty in standby has been mega reliable, even after old generator massively over volted it only killed a vdr!!

steve



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1600w PV main array at 24v, excide 2v 1000a forklift cells now x 2, 320w PV secondary array at 12v. Enfield 1944 ex RAF 5.6kw diesel genset (now in pieces, big ends gone), Petter AC1 28v diesel charging set at 2.8kw.
1kw wind turbine.
26kw wood stove back boiler to underfloor heating and dhw
camillitech
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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2017, 07:53:22 PM »


Big one is, can i use the tristar diversion mode, to dump to the second battery instead of a big resistor?






Love to know how you get on with this Steve, been thinking about it meself for yonks, personally methinks not but I'd luuurve to be proved wrong  fingers crossed!
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http://lifeattheendoftheroad.wordpress.com/

'Off grid' since 1985,  Proven 2.5kW, Proven 6kW direct heating, SI6.OH, 800ah Rolls, 4.75kW PV ,4xTS45, Lister HR2 12kW, , Powerspout pelton, Stream Engine turgo, 60 x Navitron toobs and a 1500lt store. Outback VFX3048 and 950ah forklifts for backup,
Scruff
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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2017, 02:53:36 AM »

also can i use the diversion mode of the tristar 45 to charge the second battery bank? so when first bank full it dumps to second?

There may not be enough delta voltage to have the results you except, you are trying to push current against an opposing voltage.

Dunno how tristars feel about having a voltage at the load terminals either

Ole Scruff has given me some good ideas

None that I particularly like on the matter it was just a primative split charge diode setup SOC triggered from a switch that was likely going to use more idle than it ever returned active.

Sorry to say it Paul but I think that switch is too Mad Max for the job. I reckon I could build you an SOC triggered latching contactor for less than the replacement power/control board I'm making at the moment for that behemoth.


and if you ever need one of these.
...
I'm your man  Grin

I may have a limited production run of zero consumption replacement off-gridder boards in the works for those.  whistlie
If my chinesium DC - DC converters can't keep their smoke inside I'll just rectify an inverter feed.

will dumping excess power with tristar in to second bank work?

Ask MorningStar those guys are great. 30 employees world class operation!
support@morningstarcorp.com  
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 02:59:42 AM by Scruff » Logged
eabadger
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« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2017, 06:20:51 AM »

hi,
i dont think voltage will be an issue as it will be minimum of the preset dump point, what will they think of load sensing a voltage? i dont think it will care, but if it does then a diode would solve that.
having slept on it and seen your thoughts scruff, i think i can see an issue, i will have no idea of spot resistance of the second battery, so current is the issue as limited to 45a!! so i can see this killing it, but we want to dump excess we can use the tristar to switch on a contactor which joins the batteries whilst the tristar is dumping?

those big contactors you have, i installed a new parking system in 2001 in a big new shopping center in the uk, our entries exits ticket machines etc added up to maybe 16a in one area, the buildings mains incoming "fuse" kept blowing so we were blamed, till i saw it, you had to pump up a hydraulic mechanism for several seconds to build up enough pressure  to fire the "knives" directly in to the cable!! the bang it made as the center powered back on. when i proved it wasnt us, they then said it must be the fairy lights tripping it. extrahappy

scruff you have a tristar mppt? what is your procedure for software changes out of interest? just had an issue with one of my new ones after setting a fixed ip address, in conversation with MS now, yes they are very helpful.

steve
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 06:36:37 AM by eabadger » Logged

1600w PV main array at 24v, excide 2v 1000a forklift cells now x 2, 320w PV secondary array at 12v. Enfield 1944 ex RAF 5.6kw diesel genset (now in pieces, big ends gone), Petter AC1 28v diesel charging set at 2.8kw.
1kw wind turbine.
26kw wood stove back boiler to underfloor heating and dhw
Scruff
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« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2017, 08:35:02 AM »

Hrmm yes, that's another theory I need to test. If a TriStar PWM can hold in a relay coil or if it needs a capacitor and a coil cascade....come to think of it all my contactors have 12v coils, cos that's how they come.

Firmware you mean?



Quote from: MorningStar
TriStar Firmware Updates


This is the latest firmware update for the TriStar charge controller.

To update the TriStar firmware, download this file and the MSLoad PC software utility.
This firmware update contains all fixes to date. Only the latest firmware update needs to be programmed into the TriStar.

>>> IMPORTANT NOTE: For firmware releases v13 and older, the TriStar internal bootloader must be updated. The boot updater file is included in the .zip file along with instructions. This update only needs to be performed once. Thereafter, firmware updates can be loaded normally. If updating a TriStar with firmware version v14 or newer, simply bootload the latest firmware (no need to run the bootload updater first). See the included PDF instructions for more information.



Dump the excess into an MPPT controller with the current limit set to 45A?
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eabadger
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« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2017, 08:42:20 AM »

i was just thinking the same about mppt as over current allowed and controlled!!
the mppt software has beta version for turbine control!

no, not firmware, any changes in msview, what do you do?? just interested in your way/procedure? as ms just said something to me that i cant find in manual.

steve
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1600w PV main array at 24v, excide 2v 1000a forklift cells now x 2, 320w PV secondary array at 12v. Enfield 1944 ex RAF 5.6kw diesel genset (now in pieces, big ends gone), Petter AC1 28v diesel charging set at 2.8kw.
1kw wind turbine.
26kw wood stove back boiler to underfloor heating and dhw
eabadger
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« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2017, 08:46:53 AM »

our contactors on control gear at work are all 24v, i will see if i can salvage some.
am going to play today again with it, with new array we have trippled solar incoming and only doubled panels so far another 1600w to refit now shed roof slated, slating in france is great, as we use s/s hooks to put em on, no nails that they hang off, supported at bottom, ideal! quick and simple.
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1600w PV main array at 24v, excide 2v 1000a forklift cells now x 2, 320w PV secondary array at 12v. Enfield 1944 ex RAF 5.6kw diesel genset (now in pieces, big ends gone), Petter AC1 28v diesel charging set at 2.8kw.
1kw wind turbine.
26kw wood stove back boiler to underfloor heating and dhw
Scruff
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« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2017, 05:00:27 PM »

I use the RS232 interface. Once that's setup as com1 run MSview -> Devices -> Manual Connection -> TS MPPT -> Control Address 1 (default) -> Right click on device in LHS tab & Connect.

Tools -> TS MPPT Setup Wizard -> Ok -> Ok -> Create New -> Solar Charge ->











Everything else I leave as is, I'm not using the ethernets.

Program TS (making sure dip switches are set to custom and were set with the controller powered off) -> Com 1, Address 1



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eabadger
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« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2017, 06:12:21 PM »

ok, other than i use Ethernet the same.
but what do you do when you save settings? disconnect solar input?
i have had two in the past go bang, just had a brand new one go pop sh*tfan
i changed ip address from dhcp to fixed and clicked save, it went bang when i clicked save.
ms very helpful but asked if i had done a reset, i said no, just saved network settings.
but i was curiouse and asked why, they said you have to disconnect solar on reset, so i read the manula, nothing, they have just emailed and said it is on page 33 of latest manual, my popped controller is 3 months from purchase and 1/2 an hour use, my manual makes no mention of pv disconnect, yours?
new one being dispatched foc.

steve
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1600w PV main array at 24v, excide 2v 1000a forklift cells now x 2, 320w PV secondary array at 12v. Enfield 1944 ex RAF 5.6kw diesel genset (now in pieces, big ends gone), Petter AC1 28v diesel charging set at 2.8kw.
1kw wind turbine.
26kw wood stove back boiler to underfloor heating and dhw
knighty
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« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2017, 06:16:29 PM »

I know everyone says two banks in parallel will kill one... but why ?

unless one bank is knackered to start with and losing power while standing.... (so would discharge the other bank)  then what's the downside of paralleling them both ?

with OPs 1000ah and 650ah, you've got enough capacity that both bank voltages will be identical, you won't pull more from one bank than the other because you'll be pulling such a low C rate - a 5C rate is 8250 amps - almost 100kw


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eabadger
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« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2017, 08:02:22 PM »

everything i have read says it is a bad idea, we use the batteries hard at times, we live a normal life with xbox big tvs, dishwasher washing machine and soon ashp, with the two victrons at full chat we can pull 300a, the solar can charge up to 180a but i am taking advice on c5 charge rate from exide, but best charge rate on smaller bank will be less, maximum we will be able to get out is the smaller bank, also whether it would work i like idea of redundancy so prefer two at least of everything, even down to two swa's to house from solar shed, about 100m away.

with the iffy bank, it could well discharge good one surely?

steve
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1600w PV main array at 24v, excide 2v 1000a forklift cells now x 2, 320w PV secondary array at 12v. Enfield 1944 ex RAF 5.6kw diesel genset (now in pieces, big ends gone), Petter AC1 28v diesel charging set at 2.8kw.
1kw wind turbine.
26kw wood stove back boiler to underfloor heating and dhw
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