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Author Topic: New Build DHW+CH, Wood fired boiler with thermal store. Looking for advice!  (Read 6552 times)
MWood_UK
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« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2017, 05:50:46 PM »

I thought that an unvented system had to be installed by a registered installer? Which is primarily why i avoided them!

I think that the boiler on the range is not suitable for an unvented system either.
I will need to double check as some were and some weren't and i don't remember which this one is!

When you say "Plate the Stove" do you mean have the back boiler lined/electroplated or something different?
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Countrypaul
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« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2017, 06:51:53 PM »

I also thought that (registered installer for a presurised system) but along with an annual inspection (s).

The WBS we will have also does not mention being suitable for a presurised system so went for an open vented store.
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biff
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« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2017, 08:51:57 PM »

Hi Mwood,
           Plate metal, Cut from sheet metal as opposed to cast or light tin, So for stoves it could be different sizes of thicknesses.
  I know that all this plumbing lark is getting confusing but it is best to step back and have a rest , then take a day or so and visit the plumbing centers and showrooms.
 Plumbing is like electrics, there is a flow and a return, warm water rises, big sized pipes help the delvery, copper is less resistant to the flow of water than Palstic but plastic hold the heat 10 times better.
My own system has a 210ltr thermal store and the DHWT, domestic hot water tank is a large 6ft high 3 coil jobbie with the solar coil on the bottom. I kept the whole system as simple as possible for a while but then one thing led to another and I ended up with 5 thermostats, 2 c/h pumps, 1 bronze innard domestic water pump. I got lucky and it seems to have worked out great. Mind you, it must have taken me a year to finish. At the moment our 3.8 kw of pv heat enough water during the day to leave the tanks completely warm  for showers in the morning, If the days are particularly sunny, it can be a problem because the rads and the stove get hot and dump the excess heat into the house.  So If we have done all our washing and ironing, we just open the windows and let the heat out.
 The upside is,,we can go for months during the spring, summer Autumn without lighting the stove. There is big savings on fuel.
 At the end of the day, The system has to suit your house and be plumbed in to fall in line with the layout. The more you understand the easier it will be to find exactly what you need, hence the trips to the plumbing centers and looking at tanks and thermal stores. You will not pick it up all in one day but after a while it will come to you. Keep it as simple as you can and map everything.
 I found that by drawing out systems on paper with different colored pens and markers that it gave me a clearer picture.
 One other thing, Don,t box yourself in. Leave room round the tanks for access. Large compression joints next to the tanks can take adjustment as well as swopping tanks easily if the need be.
                        Good luck
                               Biff
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eabadger
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« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2017, 06:12:23 PM »

from what i have read and understand, unvented cylinder is fine on a pumped circuit as long as source in your case wood boiler is it self vented preventing high temperatures.
this is what we have done, with gravity feed to 3kw dump rads.

steve
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1kw wind turbine.
26kw wood stove back boiler to underfloor heating and dhw
biff
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« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2017, 08:02:06 PM »

We have something similar Steve,
                      It,s a vented system with a large bore copper pipe Gravity system vertical 9ft and sloping up 1" in 25 ft to the DHWT. I accomplished this feat by drilling 2 nice entry holed in the gable wall of the house and feeding the pipes through the 9 x 2joists, marking the joists with lead marker on the end of the copper pipe, giving the joists a few gentle dunts to mark the joists correctly, Then drilling the holes with a good right angle drill the whole 25ft to the tank, It worked out good, I then broke into the pipe to connect my rad pipes, knowing that I had got the flow and return as near as possible.It sounds like very hard work but at that time, I believed it was well worth it. I still think that.
       The whole upstairs rad installation worked fine with the gravity. I stayed here on weekend breaks. The downstairs rooms were incomplete.
Then I decided to finish the house and install the downstairs rads and C/H pump. I put the pump to push the return into the boiler so as to keep the top hot exit of the boiler still capable of delivering gravity circulation. It was quite funny really. The minute the boiler got up enough heat to trigger the stat on the expansion pipe on the tank upstairs the pump cycled the hot water up the gravity pipe and down the return pipe Grin, I knew that was going to happen but I thought I might have got away with it. I had a nice little horizontal step on the copper pipework and installed a 22mm flap valve, 15 minutes work and then everything worked fine.  The system could operate on Gravity only or be pumped. The downstairs pipework was zoned off.
 Originally. there were 15 rads in the house but 4 of those were removed because they were never needed. Back then, we had no solar PV worth talking about but things were going fine,,,and then I decided that our large tank up in the loft (600 ltrs) seemed to have a lot of sediment in the bottom, So I  managed to create a 25 mm bore syphon pipe,blocking one end and filling it up with a jug in the loft, then sticking it down into the tank and asking Mrs Biff to release the pipe outside, This lifted the water and sediment out of the tank. I had also put a weak mix of bleach into the tank before i used the syphon pipe, thinking that the syphon would lift it all out but I was wrong. When the tank refilled and the new water dropped down into the old DHWT, within a few days I had horrible pinholes in the copper tank,, This was an expensive lesson..However, the old tank was 4ft but the new one was 6ft with bells and whistles,,3 coils and a cd player(I lie) I went on then to rip out the old back boiler and install an 18kw stove then I installed the thermal store. It became a genuine saga with happy ending on each installation.
 Our thermal store was the most pleasant surprise of all. By then I had begun to believe in S/S and bought a S/S 210 ltr T/S with a top boss for a 2kw x 138vdc immersion heater which acts as a second dump load for our Turbine and 2kw of PV, So all day long, the T/S soaks up the heat and releases it during the night. Our hall is a min of 8ft x 25ft and is never cold, even in the depth of winter. It also sports and indirect coil from the stove and uses this same coil to dump excess heat into the rads and the stove when the DHWT is getting too hot with the excess power from the PV,at this time of year. And it all works.
  The reality is, It is a journey.  Navitron helped immensely. Navitron was a massive prop, there was always some one who knew the answer.
   There were all kinds of little problems to sort, nothing serious, no dead ends and then it all finished up.
 I installed quite a few sealed systems, using Glow worm combis and high output rads with barrier pipe. I would put the British Gas 5 star guarantee on them and never have to worry. They all has little mini minders which I thought were cute little things.. The heat exchangers did go on a few but were readily replaced by BG inside 24 hours, so the feedback from the customers was excellent. Yet when it came to my own installations, I used vented systems. It was just so basic and you never had to worry about the pressure needle lying flat in the dial or the non disconnected loop backfeeding into the mains and poisoning half the block,, I got to really like plumbing, especially in the winter when the sites were frozen over. I kept a corgi registered plumber employed to commission the boilers and that added an air of respectability to the operations..He was deaf like me and also punch drunk with too many painful losses in the ring. He was deadly with a blowlamp with a memory like a sive and an absolute pest with the bible as a born again. We got along really well.  Times gone by.. Sighhh
                                                                          Biff
 
 
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eabadger
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« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2017, 09:27:11 AM »

i read loads of things that said not allowed, then i read the uk regs and they are, here the regs are a bit vague to say least for diy, none, on your own head sort of thing.
we have 12 rads upstairs, underfloor heating on ground floor and made a box to prioritise either or the dhw.
at the mo one 250lt primary unvented cylinder with another secondary in series await final install.
have now added a air source heat pump in to the mix for summer dhw some issues, never done one before, but working well.
all the gravity pipes in 28mm copper one reg i found was the pipes have to be hard brazed, all pumped done in hep20 with speedfit joints.

if op is going to diy does uk insist on inspecting now?
reading and asking on here is great:)


steve
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1600w PV main array at 24v, excide 2v 1000a forklift cells now x 2, 320w PV secondary array at 12v. Enfield 1944 ex RAF 5.6kw diesel genset (now in pieces, big ends gone), Petter AC1 28v diesel charging set at 2.8kw.
1kw wind turbine.
26kw wood stove back boiler to underfloor heating and dhw
MWood_UK
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« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2017, 02:05:22 PM »

if op is going to diy does uk insist on inspecting now?
reading and asking on here is great:)


steve

Its a New build so yes everything needs to be signed off by registered professional in their respective field so planning can grant a habitation order, or we won't be allowed to live in the house. Its a bit more awkward being North of the border, regs are similar but more stringent in Scotland than than England!

Eg.
Smoke alarms:
Smoke and CO detector in every room with a solid fuel appliance,
Heat and CO in Kitchen,
Smoke in hallway by kitchen door,
Smoke at other end of hallway outside living rooms,
Smoke at base of stairs,
Smoke at top of stairs,
Smoke at each end of the upstairs hallway.
Smoke in each bedroom

(about 1200 of alarms)

England :
Smoke and CO detector in every room with a solid fuel appliance,
Heat and CO in Kitchen,
Smoke in Hallway (usually near bottom of stairs),
Smoke at top of stairs

(about 400 worth of alarms)

Remedial work on existing property is a bit of a grey area, you are 'supposed' to get the works signed off. However if you don't tell anyone about the work then they aren't going to know!
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JonG
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« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2017, 01:58:17 PM »

Sorry I meant a plate heat exchanger between the stove and the store, so that only the stove is open vented!
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MWood_UK
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« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2017, 07:32:10 PM »

Ahhh, Makes sense now!
Just curiosity do you have the more compact sealed brazed plate exchanger or a regular gasket plate exchanger?

tbh, i don't rightly like the idea of using a pressurised TS.
Plus on the basis of keeping it nice and simple (running a vented boiler and a pressurized TS seems like i'm just complicating it)

Don't get me wrong, i can see the benefits of the heat exchanger keeping the TS water separate from the Boiler water and stop one getting all sludged up and slows how quickly the TS gunks up.
But not sure if the benefit of less long term maintenance outweighs the addition install cost of using a pressurized TS

I mean, its already relatively high maintenance anyway right?
I already sweep the chimneys about quarterly (depending on usage), strip down the stoves yearly + strip the oil boiler down and clean out the blower and jets (something even the boiler dude doesn't do!), cut and split logs, clean the soot boxes every morning and prep for chucking a match in when i want the stove lit etc.
Personally i dont think it will be any big deal for me to drain and flush the system every couple of years and add fresh inhibitor (which you're supposed to do anyway  whistlie )!

Maybe in another 20 years when i'm old and crippled i'll buy pre split timber and install some new age PV panels to run the 2nd immersion i had the foresight to have fitted to the TS thanks to you guys advice on that  Grin

Side note:
I've decided to go with the 500L TS in the end anyway (still need to order it though) Not because the manufacturer recommended it but because it just felt right! Especially after reading other peoples posts that they have added another TS to go along with the ###L they already have. I just figured more volume the better when storing hot water!
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JonG
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« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2017, 06:24:35 AM »

We use the smaller sealed packages, usually from SWEP. There isn't a huge difference in cost, most of the TS's we spec can either pressurised or sealed, there is another pump and a plate and an expansion vessel.

If you seal the system you can follow VDI and omit the inhibitor provided the water locally is soft enough and PH comes up when you cook off the system water.

Not sure which store you are going with but Newark have a new version with a neat hot water module using an external plate heat exchanger, digital info-graphic and variable speed pump to retain heat in the store for longer.
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biff
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« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2017, 09:38:14 AM »

The actualy physical size of a 500ltr T/S needs to be taken into consideration,
                                               It,s weight, It,s position in the house, The strength of the floor below it. It will be big. So the tape needs to come out and it needs to be drawn to scale.
Our own T/S is only 210ltrs and I kept the fluid inside it completely separate/isolated from the C/H fluid by installing a small 1 gallon expansion tank above it and filling it manually. When it was all up and running, I put anti-freeze in the water and this takes care of the possibility of Legionnaires. This is just an idea for you, that,s all. It is somewhat unconventional but it works really well.
It is heated by a 2kw x 138vdc (secondary) immersion dump load which keeps our wind Turbine under control. It,s immersion cannot have a thermostat to switch it off, instead, it uses the thermostat to trigger a second c/h pump which will dump the excess heat into the rads and and even into our stove, indirectly.
  There are the other considerations. There is no point in installing a large thermal store in a room off the main living area if the heat in that said T/S is going to leak out a nearbv window or out through the exterior walls of the house. If you can locate your T/S right smack in the center of your house so that any heat that does spread out from it benefits the surrounding areas.
Our T/S came already insulated. I built an insulated wall around that again, with a vent at the bottom and a manually operated one at the top. It still releases the heat during the night and is quite noticeable in winter when the outside temperature is quite low and yet our 8ft x 25 ft hall is warm when we open the front door to enter.There is never a chill in the hall..
All is good, You will get there.
                                    Biff
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MWood_UK
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« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2017, 06:46:44 PM »

yup tell me about the size and weight... ~640Kg total, ~850mm diam and 6'6" tall!

Had to go back to Scotframe and get the engineers to do the maths as the Architect made No provision for anything larger than a standard 120L indirect cylinder. Even after being told from day 1 what we planned to fit and the approx size!
Granted it was only a 300L store originally planned for, but that was still massive by comparison to a regular cylinder at 6'6" tall and 2'6" diameter!

As you recall the house was a T shape, its going in the centre of the house, top of the stairs where the legs of the T join!
I had to add supporting stud under 1 end of those floor joists that had been cut, then double up 2 of the existing joists although I actually tripled them for my own peace of mind Grin (better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it)


We will have extra kingspan left over and was going glass wool the stud work cupboard then hopefully get another 100-150mm of kingspan on the floor walls and ceiling
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MWood_UK
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« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2017, 09:25:23 PM »

Still been on the hunt for a TS,  but this time i've widened my horizon to include unvented ones too!
I have also been eyeing up the pre-plumbed 'multi source' ready stores.

I have come across these from Advance Appliances and they seem to offer quite a good pre-plumbed setup.
Does anyone have one of these installed?
What are your thoughts on these and the cost?

To me from an inexperienced eye it seems to be ticking the boxes, its a smaller form factor than planned at only 1780mm x 750mm, rolls in at 30kg below expected as well and is around the same price as the bare bones vented TS from McDonald that i was originally leaning towards!
Whist the wbs is not designed for unvented it is however good to 1.5 Bar confused there but if thats what it says! So my logic is that if the release valve on the top of the TS is set to 1.0 Bar that gives me a good safety margin... Right? (still feeling a bit  horror about the heat exchanger route)

Its pre-plumbed with mains dhw, pre wired with 2 x double stats +flue stat + some other tamper proof stat, double safety features on everything, twin immersion heaters good for solar pv, also has solar water tappings and a 2nd indirect heating source + all the pumps!
Looks to be straight forward plug and play, just need controller and room stats!

Ok so its still setup as direct to store from the wbs and its already pre-installed with a bit of an adhoc loading valve setup, But i'm liking UK made and the 10 year guarantee

https://www.advanceappliances.co.uk/product/73-multi-fuel-universal-thermal-store-sfuts/


Thats the loading valve setup on the left looking a bit unsightly! I'm sure that since i already have a dedicated loading valve at the wbs that i can remove that section and re-route it to be a little more aesthetic/space saving!
And i'm sick of it now, it's a go, go, go for DIY install as thats another 3 plumbers that have not got back to me!  
Just see if i can drag some unsuspecting engineer round and get him to sign it off (At gunpoint if necessary  fight )

Ps. Forgot to say when insulation was mentioned that i was hoping to have enough pennies to use the glass wool/silver foil pipe lagging. Its a bit pricey but 2nd to none (to my knowledge)

« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 09:33:57 PM by MWood_UK » Logged
JonG
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« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2017, 07:10:42 AM »

We have fitted these.

It can be vented or unvented with different schematics for each option.

Your stove is for a vented application, so on no account seal the system, it will be very dangerous and non-compliant.

The return riser supplied is not the best (putting it mildly) , we remove it and use an electronic option for better control and accuracy and can be installed neater.

Pumps are a but cheap but will get you going.

You will need a header tank suitable for solid fuel (Newark/Woodwarm) and your layout will need to incorporate a heat leak radiator at the appropriate sizing off the gravity primaries.

The pre-wired set up is OK, but again we chop them up a bit to suit our preferences which are project specific. The wiring centre is a bit tight though if you do have to make changes.

If you do use a different return riser/laddomat then you will need to understand how to change the schematics supplied with the store because they are a bit crude, you will need to decide whether you are using a 4 tapping or 2 tapping layout and may need an injector tee, depending on how you do it.

Solid fuel installs tend to phase most heating engineers/plumbers so think carefully before you dive in, you would also need to register with Building Control, and it would be sensible to discuss the install first before you get started.


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MWood_UK
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« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2017, 07:51:00 PM »

Quote
Your stove is for a vented application, so on no account seal the system, it will be very dangerous and non-compliant.
facepalm Yes of course "Pike, you STUPID boy"  fight I think that light bulb in my head has a short at times!


All the pre-plumbed TS i came across were all labeled as unvented. Ok, as you say i could start pulling bits off and refitting to my requirements, but i'm kinda liking the concept of plug and play. My biggest downfall will be dealing with the controller side of it so would prefer not to need to start pulling it apart and rewiring !

I did look at the Pumps and thought they wouldn't be the greatest! But, getting up and running is the important bit at this stage, like you say i can easily swap out the pumps when the time comes!


Really trying to put all the snippets of advice together atm:

If i go down the unvented ts route that means that i would need to use a heat exchanger and have the wbs side vented (obviously with a hw safe head tank)
It wouldn't need to be a big head tank (would 18-20L be adequate?)
I could easily fit that in the Cylinder cupboard or possibly squeeze it into the 'loft' space.
Even if the head tank would be mounted in the cupboard, personally i would still use a high expansion pipe just to be sure as it's pump assisted. Or would that be unnecessary?

On the subject of pump assisted - its 9.5m (32' ish) horizontally between wbs and ts, i've already string lined it out in the house and accounted for 28mm pipe and can achieve a gradient of just about 2" in 25' to allow it to syphon effectively (forgot who but someone mentioned earlier that they had 1" in 25' and syphoned without issue) that leaves me with enough room to get a good fall of 1" in 10' easy on the dump rad as that is only 2.5m run from the main pipes.
 
I am still struggling with the 6kw (6000w) requirement for the heat leak rad though. Either i'm doing the maths wrong or the largest towel rad i can find is only 668w (0.66kw) the largest normal rad i have come across is barely 1000w and that was a BIG floor to ceiling jobbie! I think its best to double check with the manufacturer again on that one!
I did find somewhere on the old google box that a heat leak rad should be calculated at 10% of the boilers output.
So 17.3Kw Max = 1.73Kw heat leak or
12.1Kw nominal = 1.21Kw heat leak
Both these figures seem a lot more realistic and achievable than a rad half the boilers nominal output!

I was also thinking along the lines of the controllers...  Really all the time clock would be doing is controlling if the CH pump is running or not (assuming it's set on 'timed' rather than being set to 'on' permanently) So a basic time clock and room stats directly controlling its corresponding zone valve would work right?
I was also toying with the idea of running more than just 2 zones! Purely for comfort reasons as the old folks live with us and they can be bad for having the CH blasting out and cooking everyone else so it wouldn't be a bad thing throwing in a few more stats and valves. Zoning the livingrooms and bedrooms individually!
I have scribbled the valve setup (attachment) ... Think it looks right?


genuflect Just want to say a big thanks again for all the help and advice you guys are imparting on me! Gonna get there, bit at a time Grin

Edit: Forgot to say i'm gonna give those Advance Appliances people a call later this week and have a chat with them as well see what they have to say about things


* zoning valves.jpg (76.8 KB, 1328x747 - viewed 57 times.)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2017, 08:01:20 PM by MWood_UK » Logged
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