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Author Topic: Something looks a little strange... I think someone screwed up somewhere!  (Read 7226 times)
MWood_UK
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« on: June 27, 2017, 11:33:51 PM »

Ok, this may not be the ideal place for this but its construction related!

We are old school construction so are really not conversant with new fangled 'kit' builds   norfolk
The most basic rule i was taught for load bearing joists (8.5" x 2" graded) of any span is they are always strongest when NOT cut in half and joined with straps at mid span!

Queue photo:


i'll get another photo while i'm working in there tomorrow! (On my Hol's...  extrahappy)

So from behind me is is the joist count.
The numbers in brackets are the cut joists with a beam inserted:

1  1  2  (1  1)  3  (1  1  1  1)  2+1  2  (1  1)  2  1  1

Its an equal T shape house,
10.3m X 6m  across the top exterior,
9.0m X 6.0m down the leg exterior,
Just off camera to the left is a double girder truss with supporting stud work (C16 double top, bottom + triple uprights)
Bolted joist hangers with these hanging on them:

  3  (1  1  1  1)  2+1    

That seems all good (not a fan of joist hangers but they look 'done proper like'  fingers crossed!)

My main concern is the ones in the photo!

The 2 shorter ones at each end are completely un-supported, they are free floating dead centre of each livingroom. (there are another 2 like this at the bottom of the leg too)
The larger centre one would have only had 1 non structural stud crossing underneath (off centre, 90 degrees looks more by chance than planning)

The new layout now has a stud running a good 1/3 of the way along it, a little off centre... So think i'll make it load bearing just in case! Grin

Am i seriously that out of touch its all good to do this now?
Did someone (Engineer, Joiner, Kit maker, Architect) make a boo boo?
Did we get half of someone else's house? (we have a strange amount of odd pieces of the internal stud sections (same numbers but miles wrong size, shape, layout!
Why do so many pieces of there house fit ours?
This was supposed to be one of a kind (the bill for the architect sure as heck says that to me!  wackoold)



120k construction budget and close to half again for the architect alone  wackoold.
Supposed to look like a Rural 1 and a half granite farm house....
It looks like a wimpy homes, lick n stick estate house...

Cant help feel a like we got screwed somewhere along the way fume

« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 01:41:28 PM by MWood_UK » Logged
Sean
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« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2017, 06:36:23 AM »

Ask the architect or whoever did the structural calculations, you'll only get a stream of opinions on here.
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MWood_UK
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« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2017, 11:08:24 AM »

The architect can't relate that to any of the engineers drawings and i'm trying to get hold of the Engineer to speak with him!

Thanks for the honest opinion!
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djh
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« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2017, 12:37:38 PM »

As Sean said, get the engineer's drawings - presumably there's a copy on site else what are they building to? I'm afraid I can't follow your description but until we see the engineer's plan it isn't really worth commenting on the design.

120k construction budget and close to half again for the architect alone

Something's wrong there. The construction budget looks low and the architect's fee looks very high. What do both include/exclude?
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biff
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« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2017, 02:23:57 PM »

Hi M Wood,
           I was out in the yard when this came up on my phone. You need to stop this dead in it,s tracks before it gets any worse.
 I sincerely hope that you have not parted with any money to either your engineers or your architect. You need to call the two together, Take a friend to the meeting.
 If there are no supporting uprights, then you are in soapy bubble.
 The woodwork looks like two chippies not talking to one another and having two different opinions on how the job should be done.
 They are going to ask you to settle for an RSJ, rolled steel joist which can be boxed in but that is entirely up to you.
 A steel sandwich would replace all that but would have to be supported on both ends with  150mm x 150mm x5mmwall box steel but then the 2 x 8ft chip flooring would have to come up.
 Don,t worry, You have got it in time. You do not have to shout or get stressed,, just say stop,,,get out and come back when I call you,meanwhile the engineer and the Architect can spar over it.
 Go to your solicitor and find out where you stand legally,
                                                  Biff
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 05:53:36 PM by biff » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2017, 08:19:29 PM »

From what I can see is you have several tripled joists going from left to right but we cant see what they are supported on. then you have one  trimmed triple joists and two trimmed  double joists hanging from them, and then the singled trimmer joists are hanging at mid span from them. If as others have said that is what your engineer specified, it looks ok to me. But do check with the spec before you proceed and get the LABC to ok it.

Desp
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gravyminer
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« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2017, 09:19:51 PM »

The near end of that central triple set joins onto a transverse triple and could well be up to the job, however the far end of the central triple set is clearly wrong as -

1.  it ends on a single joist and any 'trimmer' should be at least doubled up.
2.  this single joist does not even get support from that inner wall on the right to reduce its span length and its section is woefully inadequate to carry the load of that triple central set.

As Biff says now is the time to sort it.

And as much as I personally try to avoid them, where is the Building Inspector on this ?  
He would be the one you use to trigger the process of getting it sorted. police

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gravyminer
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« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2017, 10:26:27 PM »

The near end of that central triple set joins onto a transverse triple and could well be up to the job, however the far end of the central triple set is clearly wrong as -

1.  it ends on a single joist and any 'trimmer' should be at least doubled up.
2.  this single joist does not even get support from that inner wall on the right to reduce its span length and its section is woefully inadequate to carry the load of that triple central set.

As Biff says now is the time to sort it.

And as much as I personally try to avoid them, where is the Building Inspector on this ?  
He would be the one you use to trigger the process of getting it sorted. police



It looks to me that the far transverse joist was tripled, but if as Mr GM says it is a single then you need to sort it properly.

Desp
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biff
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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2017, 09:03:21 AM »

Hi Me again,
            Sorry to disturb you. I know that you are not a happy bunny at present and perhaps regret sharing your pics with us but it is good that you did. I have considered the different options that you would have to make this effort strong enough but they all involve serious compromise in your new build.You are only starting off and to see this kind of behaviour at this point in time does not look good for the rest of the job. I considered an RSJ which would need to be some 20ft long and have steel uprights both ends,which would involve checking the raft for strength to carry the load.Then there is the possibility of a steel sandwich which is a flat 15mm x 220mm  plate between two lengths of matching joists, bolted together every 400mm and slipped up in between the joists where the present line of trimmers are..
These are only compromises and they will be suggested to you. I suggest that you tell them politely in the negative. Yet you have to be sweet and seemingly understanding and at the same time demand the floors to be lifted, the joists removed, the correct lenghts of joists to be ordered and installed, the floor relaid or screwed down but if damaged, to be replaced with new water resistant material(Not chip). Then there is the question of the wall plate or the "Head o frame" plates. under the joists end on the exterior support walls. They need to be doubled up to a minimum of 100mm, That will be in the plan.
You have your work cut out but don,t despair. I have hired a few cowboys in my time and I learned that the longer they stayed,the bigger the bust up.
Take plenty of pics of the work and the workers.
It might be an ideas to check the length of the Joists that were ordered to span the lounge and see if they were the correct length to start with. (Do a count on all the material)
Meanwhile, keep calm. collected and record everything that you possibly can.
                                                             Biff
 N.B Again , There is not a single noggin in that set-up, nothing to prevent lateral thrust, apart from that line of trimmers in the center where the joists can still move sideways on the hangers. This means that normal upstairs traffic can pull the nails on the ceiling plaster boards.  I am off out to cut fire wood.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 09:23:57 AM by biff » Logged

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Tinbum
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2017, 09:56:15 AM »

As a traditional builder myself this does look a strange sort of construction but I wouldn't like to comment until I could see proper drawings of it all. We really  need more information.
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JohnS
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« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2017, 03:47:59 PM »

Perhaps the Double or triple joists need replacing with flitch beams.

Did you get a copy of the engineer's calcs and drawings?  After all it is you who paid for them?
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biff
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« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2017, 08:49:29 PM »

Aye John,
       Flitch beam or steel sandwich would be fine but they need to be resting on steel uprights and on concrete that can take the load.
  Looking at it from a "Get it right"point of view, The correct joists, with proper noggins, need to be fitted .There would be no need for anything else,
                                                                 Biff
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djh
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« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2017, 09:30:43 PM »

Flitch beams don't need to be on steel posts. Timber can be fine; it all depends on the reason for the beams and the loads involved. My sun room has flitch beams above the windows, simply because they are a long unsupported span but they are on a timber post at one end and 2x4s at the other end.All engineer approved. As you say, the concrete under a post needs to be designed for the load it will carry.

But I think we need to wait for MWood_UK to come back with the engineer's drawings to understand this situation.
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« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2017, 09:38:58 AM »

The irony is,
            That it takes 10 times more work to leave the joists like that, than it would to just run them straight across.
 You could be forgiven for thinking that there was a staircase intended to rise on the left hand side, Then there is that spare stud frame that was used to rest the joists on while the trimmers and joists were being lifted into place. I wonder what they were saying when they removed the support frame. It would have sagged immediately.
This is not too serious. I kid you not. Believe me. I have seen much much worse..
                                                                 Biff
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MWood_UK
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« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2017, 03:24:24 PM »

Holy monkey farts... didn't even realise i had half the forum replying!

Quick run down on whats been going on since i posted this question...

Architect:
Hes confused, doesn't match up with the Engineer's drawing and it needs running past the Engineer. (staying at arms length methinks)
One of the walls we needed to remove at the other end of the building is apparently a 'Diaphragm' wall - passed to Engineer to confirm
(Very confused since my knowledge of a Diaphragm wall is that its used for below ground construction and filled with engineered fluid until back filled with reinforced concrete?  Perhaps he mean't a buttress wall?)

Engineer:
Had a quick chat on the phone (mostly about Cylinder weight and location) but mentioned the joists, sent photos, sent a copy of the Kit Plan etc and waiting on a reply!
He said 500L cylinder seems a little large for a domestic property... So I reminded him that his 1st attempt with our heating system he specified 2x 300L cylinders when doing the insulation/emissions/heating calcs!

Kit Manufacturer - Spoke to their resident Engineer:
Yes its the done thing for larger spans, it is to reduce flex in the upstairs (kinda feels like its doing the opposite atm)!
Written affirmation can be supplied to say that it meets or exceeds reg's and req's.
He's checking that the load bearing capacity is suitable for the 220kg heavier than originally planned Cylinder!

To my knowledge i have never seen the original Engineers drawings for the house, only the Architects sectional drawings etc.
However i do have a copy of the Plan which has had the Engineer over write details on them!

There isn't a great deal going to be happening anyway. Still another 3 week wait on the staircase that was supposed to be here 2 weeks ago, Joiner on holiday, Builders doing blockwork exterior atm, most of the internals (walls, plasterboard doors etc.) we are doing our self to save on joiners. Sparkie was due to start Monday gone, but is running behind and wont be here until next week!
 

Here is a pic of the Kit Manufacturers drawing, this shows all the joists etc and the house does match these!
It was a good pic that you can zoom in on... dunno after Photobucket has got hold of it though!



120k is the basic construction budget 1st and 2nd fix (wind and water tight, drains, exterior blockwork, internal walls, plasterboard, doors, casings, finishing timbers etc. minus kitchen and sanitary ware etc)
Sparkie and plumber excluded

Architects fees included 2 planning rejections + various amendments and then a complete re-design to this lick and stick you see before you just to get planning passed. The original Engineers fees, and all the rest of the little odds and ends of fees.

Planning apps were a separate cost.



[RANT]
This isn't the first time we have had problems with Architects and planners! We tried this twice 800miles south in the Midlands (and in 2 different Counties) and no joy... its like we are on Planning departments international *hit list!
I can drive around here and within 2 miles i can find a new build all timber 2 story Chalet house that would be in keeping if i was in 'The sound of Music'
2 Modern architecture half house half warehouse curvy wavy roof things that look like they were featured in Grand Designs. Plus various other new builds that have all the things our house was rejected for twice!  (and yes, all in the same planning area)
I cant build a traditional granite farm cottage that's not traditional enough! But i can build a wimpy homes a-like house in the middle of nowhere, where it stands out like 'The Angel of the North'!
I could order a hit on the planner dealing with us and hope the one that takes over is more reasonable... no wait, i can't afford to now!

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