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Author Topic: Something looks a little strange... I think someone screwed up somewhere!  (Read 7225 times)
dhaslam
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« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2017, 04:08:38 PM »

Difficult to follow anything from the plans.    One think that is a bit unconventional is the Purina high up in the roof and close together.  In a high position the Purina are harder to support and don't take much of the weight of the roof. It may be OK because the roof is quite small but worth a question.

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MWood_UK
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« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2017, 05:26:38 PM »

LMAO,
Those purlins don't look like they are supporting anything to me (but then i'm used to a purlin that runs gable to gable and sits on the carrying walls)
Not a baulk of timber that is just sitting between 3 or 4 trusses (to me that's just adding weight that needs to be supported!) 

Did I mention this was one of those new fangled kit houses? (non of it makes much sense to me)


The internal skin is the house!
The exterior blockwork has no structural properties of any kind, its only purpose is literally to keep the wet and wind off the woodwork.

Its basically just a big sandwich of osb and foam:
From outside to inside:

100mm exterior block

50mm cavity baton (fire stops)
Reflectashield breather membrane
10mm OSB  sheeting
147mm C16 - high density PU foam back fill (Kingspan type stuff)
10mm OSB sheeting
Reflectashield breather membrane
45mm vertical batons (service cavity)

12.5mm Plasterboard

http://www.scotframe.co.uk/News/Articles/news-building-the-future.aspx]http://www.scotframe.co.uk/News/Articles/news-building-the-future.aspx]http://www.scotframe.co.uk/News/Articles/news-building-the-future.aspx


Then the wallplate on the top of the wall section and then the all in one truss dropped on top for the upstairs
(easiest i can describe them is its a queen post truss with a dropped joist)

looks like that, sorry i dont have a pic of the actual ones

The upstairs is packed chock full with glass wool in the voids either side, between the trusses has a 50mm breather cavity on the exterior side, followed by 100mm kingspan flush to the inside edge of the truss, then another 50mm kingspan sheeting over the trusses, a 20mm retaining baton then plasterboard.

The ceiling downstairs is double sheeted then the stud walls go up, upstairs is pretty much the same, everything needs sheeting before the stud goes up (nightmare)
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Sean
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« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2017, 05:47:51 PM »

Is this going up in Shetland ?
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MWood_UK
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« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2017, 05:50:18 PM »

Close,
NE Scotland Peterhead way

This has apparently been pretty much 'The Standard' building method up here for some years now!
This isn't new locally just new to me
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 05:53:21 PM by MWood_UK » Logged
Sean
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« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2017, 05:56:31 PM »

Close,
NE Scotland Peterhead way

This has apparently been pretty much 'The Standard' building method up here for some years now!
This isn't new locally just new to me

Ah, somewhat south of here then, you said you'd tried the same some 800 miles down South (in the Midlands) - Scotframe do a lot of trade up here, well regarded.
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MWood_UK
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« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2017, 06:12:14 PM »

Probably could have worded that better and that was my fault, just checked... 800 miles was a round trip.
My bad!

I don't doubt the quality and insulation properties of the kit, just there are some bits that just didn't look right (from my clearly outdated trade experience) and was backed up by the contractor installing the kit saying it was the first time he had, had to do that on a build!

And again by the Architect saying it doesn't look right and to check with the Engineer!

It will probably be down to the fact i have trade experience screwing everything up!
If it was just Janet and John tele-marketers from Aberdeen they wouldn't have questioned anything and it would be finished by now (and the honeymoon bed may have ended up in the living room before they noticed a problem)
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Sean
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« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2017, 06:17:02 PM »



And again by the Architect saying it doesn't look right and to check with the Engineer!




Stop fretting, let them earn their fees.
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MWood_UK
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« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2017, 06:25:54 PM »


Stop fretting, let them earn their fees.


Lol, i don't think he even earned his fees when he designed the house!

I swear to god, i think he just hit 'copy' and 'paste' from someone else's house design, sent a huge bill and went on holiday for 6 months when the cheque cleared
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Sean
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« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2017, 06:35:01 PM »

All of the timber kit frame folks have a trade only catalogue, "designing" is akin to ordering a Chinese takeaway - with a little garnish/detail to suit.
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Tiff
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« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2017, 09:41:39 PM »


Yes its the done thing for larger spans, it is to reduce flex in the upstairs (kinda feels like its doing the opposite atm)!


Have to say this was my thinking and happened to bring it up in conversation this evening with a builder friend who said it helps reduce 'springy' floors when you have large spans.
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djh
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« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2017, 10:13:30 PM »

The original photo seems to have gone AWOL.

I can't expand the drawing enough to read it. Sorry.
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Cheers, Dave
Warble
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« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2017, 10:47:32 PM »

There seems to have been changes to the design from the kit drawing. There is a two storey space at cross of the tee on the drawing that seems to have been floored in.

Since Structural Engineers don't normally do heating schemes it looks as though Scotframe would have designed the structure and would have been aware of any structural changes. Did they erect the kit?
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biff
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« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2017, 10:38:36 AM »






           This is one simple way of getting rid of sagging, The wire cable follows the noggins to each end of the 24ft span. There are threaded bars attacked to each cable and a large 100mm x 10mm square washer which overlaps the pressure point that the noggins exert on the joists, The floor is sheeted in high quality ply, screwed down. When pressure is brough to bear on the cables by tightening the nuts on the threaded bars, the floor rises in the centre by some 50 mm. Then it is left to settle for a few weeks and very carefully lowered back on to it,s bearings keeping the cable taunt.
 As an afterthought, a 2 x 1 baton was screwed to the underside of the noggins for extra strength,, (My forklift used to drop a ton+ up there), The floor is 24ft x 13ft)
I have a John Broadwood and a French overstrung up there still,,but in the beginning, before I began storing my electrical gear up there, The sound from these instruments was unbelievable. I am profoundly deaf but still enjoy music but the experience of playing on that empty floor was simply unearthly.
  As for M woods joists, there is simply no way round it, Even to construct those trimmers,the chippies needed to errect a support frame..When they removed the frame the lot would have sagged there and then. Proper support is needed for trimmers,filch beams, RSJs,etc. There is no way around that.
                                                               Biff
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dhaslam
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« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2017, 11:08:14 AM »

In this case the joists are about 18 ft long and applying the old rule of 1/2 inch per foot plus one inch a 10 inch joists should be enough to make a strong floor upstairs. 

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MWood_UK
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« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2017, 11:52:12 AM »

Sorry if the quotes come out screwy, it won't let me use 'multi quote'!
Quote from: Sean
All of the timber kit frame folks have a trade only catalogue, "designing" is akin to ordering a Chinese takeaway - with a little garnish/detail to suit.
Why am i not surprised... Geared up for mass production of characterless properties for the mass housing markets of Barrett, Wimpy and the likes!


Quote from: djh
The original photo seems to have gone AWOL.
I can't expand the drawing enough to read it. Sorry.
Sorry i had a re-shuffle on Photobucket to send links to the Architect/Engineer etc. ill reinsert that link shortly and add some more photos like i promised in my first post!

I cant upload directly to here as the files are too big, is there any other way to get a good image hosted that allows for full zooming?


Quote from: Warble
There seems to have been changes to the design from the kit drawing. There is a two storey space at cross of the tee on the drawing that seems to have been floored in.

Since Structural Engineers don't normally do heating schemes it looks as though Scotframe would have designed the structure and would have been aware of any structural changes. Did they erect the kit?
There have been no structural changes between the kit drawing and the actual construction (to my knowledge... but i'm gonna go check now!)
Any structural changes i can only attribute to being the transfer between the original Architects/Engineers plans and the Kit manufacturer's design so that it could be fabricated by Scotframe! If that makes sense?
The only changes that we have made is to the internal wall layout and even then strictly limited to non-load bearing stud. I assure you the full height space is the Stairwell and that has most certainly not been floored over Wink.

As for the Engineer on the Architects side of things, It was the same engineering company 'Fairhurst' that dealt with the structural side and the emissions, thermal values, did the SAPS report and stated the heating system that was to be installed! I would assume they just has specific departments and specialist engineers to suit...
However that could explain why the original heating system they specified was as follows:
x2 independent water heating systems!
No.1 - Range (12kw to water) with 300L store cylinder for DHW
No.2 - Free standing batch feed wood boiler (20kw water only) with 300L store cylinder for CH
House size 156 m2 - 1.5 storey

Since the Rayburn 370sfw range that we intended to fit is no longer being manufactured we swapped to a different 17-19kw (to water) wood only Lincar range and now need to install a 500L store as per manufacturers guideline. (which isn't an issue space wise, but just load wise for the supporting joists)


Quote from: biff
This is one simple way of getting rid of sagging, The wire cable follows the noggins to each end of the 24ft span. There are threaded bars attacked to each cable and a large 100mm x 10mm square washer which overlaps the pressure point that the noggins exert on the joists, The floor is sheeted in high quality ply, screwed down. When pressure is brough to bear on the cables by tightening the nuts on the threaded bars, the floor rises in the centre by some 50 mm. Then it is left to settle for a few weeks and very carefully lowered back on to it,s bearings keeping the cable taunt.
 As an afterthought, a 2 x 1 baton was screwed to the underside of the noggins for extra strength,, (My forklift used to drop a ton+ up there), The floor is 24ft x 13ft)
I have a John Broadwood and a French overstrung up there still,,but in the beginning, before I began storing my electrical gear up there, The sound from these instruments was unbelievable. I am profoundly deaf but still enjoy music but the experience of playing on that empty floor was simply unearthly.
  As for M woods joists, there is simply no way round it, Even to construct those trimmers,the chippies needed to errect a support frame..When they removed the frame the lot would have sagged there and then. Proper support is needed for trimmers,filch beams, RSJs,etc. There is no way around that.
Personally i've only seen that done once before, very similar to the photos but if i recall steel ferrules were used where the cable ran through each joist.
It's a simple and elegant fix, just like using a truss rod in a guitar neck!

I don't think a support frame was used when the joiners fitted the trimmers... i believe at best there was nothing more than a liberal use of 4x2 props! Put it this way they turned up on site as usual and within 2 hours they were fitted with no sign of temporary support structure being removed and then the floor went down the same day (glued and screwed).
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 10:42:09 AM by MWood_UK » Logged
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