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Author Topic: VW finally taking EVs seriously?  (Read 796 times)
dan_b
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« on: September 12, 2017, 07:35:00 AM »

Chucking a ton of money at battery tech and production...

Still missing the point of difference that Tesla has made with creating a working fast charging network though...

https://electrek.co/2017/09/11/vw-massive-billion-investment-in-electric-cars-and-batteries/amp/
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RIT
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« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2017, 07:46:12 AM »

Chucking a ton of money at battery tech and production...

Still missing the point of difference that Tesla has made with creating a working fast charging network though...

https://electrek.co/2017/09/11/vw-massive-billion-investment-in-electric-cars-and-batteries/amp/

I can't see any of the major manufacturers trying to emulate a dedicated charging network, do we want 10 different networks or just a common charging standard?
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Westie
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« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2017, 09:02:13 AM »

Chucking a ton of money at battery tech and production...

Still missing the point of difference that Tesla has made with creating a working fast charging network though...

https://electrek.co/2017/09/11/vw-massive-billion-investment-in-electric-cars-and-batteries/amp/

I can't see any of the major manufacturers trying to emulate a dedicated charging network, do we want 10 different networks or just a common charging standard?

Tesla have signed up to promote the CCS standard, so I guess they're sitting on the wall with a leg dangling both sides. At the moment they are the only company seriously addressing the 'away from home' charging issue, so that gives them a USP to sell more cars. However as CCS grows it will eventually overtake them, then that USP switches to favour  BEV manufacturers which use CCS.  The Model3 will be the tipping point... If they fulfil the 500,000 model 3 orders over the next 2 years Tesla supercharger stations could get busy....

https://electrek.co/2017/04/12/tesla-model-3-charging-standard-electric-vehicles/


« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 09:06:27 AM by Westie » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2017, 09:58:21 AM »

I'm deeply cynical about the spread of away-from-home charging: compared to at home/work/normal parking space charging it's expensive and inconvenient. Once you've got the range up beyond a few hundred miles (say 4 hours of motorway driving) then it will only be a handful of journeys per year plus professional drivers like reps who actually need fast charging, and they are mostly going to stop for food, etc. at a small number of service stations for the sort of length of time that gives them the opportunity to charge up anyway. That means the number of fast charging stations you actually need to cover somewhere like the UK well enough to keep virtually everyone happy is rather small.
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brackwell
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« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2017, 01:21:05 PM »

Well kind of agree but remember that only 50% of car owners can charge domestically.

Also the reps/business people are doing totally disproportional mileage.

No good thinking what it is like now as we need all the solutions (horses for courses) when there are 25million EVs.

Ken
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azps
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« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2017, 01:38:27 PM »

I'm deeply cynical about the spread of away-from-home charging: compared to at home/work/normal parking space charging it's expensive and inconvenient.

Doesn't that all change when we move away from predominantly car ownership to predominantly car hire? I expect that to happen within 20 years. At-home charging will look like an anachronism then.
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dimengineer
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« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2017, 02:29:43 PM »

I'm deeply cynical about the spread of away-from-home charging: compared to at home/work/normal parking space charging it's expensive and inconvenient. Once you've got the range up beyond a few hundred miles (say 4 hours of motorway driving) then it will only be a handful of journeys per year plus professional drivers like reps who actually need fast charging, and they are mostly going to stop for food, etc. at a small number of service stations for the sort of length of time that gives them the opportunity to charge up anyway. That means the number of fast charging stations you actually need to cover somewhere like the UK well enough to keep virtually everyone happy is rather small.

I'm not so sure its "rather small". If you look at the average Motorway Fuel Station, its got maybe 16 fuel pumps. At busy periods there can be a reasonable wait - and that's at 5 minutes per fill up. If you are looking at 30 - 60 minutes to charge that's 100 - 200 charging points. At very busy periods its even more. 100 charge points is a pretty reasonable sized amount of parking. Each fast charging at 100kW. So that's 10MW, which isn't totally stupid, but is a lot.

Added to which your "Normal" Fuel station off the Motorway generally doesn't have the space to allow the 20 - 50 cars parked that it would need. None of these are insuperable, but they are real practical issues
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RIT
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« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2017, 10:53:22 PM »

Added to which your "Normal" Fuel station off the Motorway generally doesn't have the space to allow the 20 - 50 cars parked that it would need. None of these are insuperable, but they are real practical issues

Things will end up changing a lot, for many trips the car will be able to charge at the destination rather than filling up on route once hotels start to deploy charging points. Such locations will have a advantage in so much that they will only have to install lower rate charges as the majority of cars will be charged over night.

The real issue is going to be that the rollout of a nation charging points is going to cost a lot, this is all doable as long as the government does not try and recover the lost fuel tax over the next 5 years or so.
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« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2017, 10:48:18 AM »

Added to which your "Normal" Fuel station off the Motorway generally doesn't have the space to allow the 20 - 50 cars parked that it would need. None of these are insuperable, but they are real practical issues
The petrol station itself won't, but the service station next door to it will usually have a large number of parking spaces for the people who have stopped to eat/get coffee/use the toilets, etc. - fitting chargers to these won't be hard.
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dimengineer
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« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2017, 07:53:30 PM »

I meant the off motorway petrol stations - your corner petrol station if oyu like. Next to my office there's a Shell with a "Little Waitrose" Its got about 8 parking spots. If you want 20 - 40 charging points, they aint going to fit. And you need somewhere for a couple of dozen people to hang about for 30 - 60 minutes. Those are the kind of practical issues I mean.

I'm sure they aren't insuperable, but I'm struggling to imagine what the solution would look like.
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« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2017, 09:39:16 PM »

I meant the off motorway petrol stations - your corner petrol station if oyu like. Next to my office there's a Shell with a "Little Waitrose" Its got about 8 parking spots. If you want 20 - 40 charging points, they aint going to fit. And you need somewhere for a couple of dozen people to hang about for 30 - 60 minutes. Those are the kind of practical issues I mean.

I'm sure they aren't insuperable, but I'm struggling to imagine what the solution would look like.

I'm struggling too. But I'm sure of two things. One, it will be solved, soon (within the next few years). Two, the people who solve it have a great opportunity to make a lot of money. My hunch is that self-driving EVs will just drive themselves to the closest available charging point, and then drive themselves back to your front door in time for when you next need them. That way, charging points don't need to be grouped in the way that corner petrol stations are.
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Westie
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« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2017, 11:15:23 PM »

I meant the off motorway petrol stations - your corner petrol station if oyu like. Next to my office there's a Shell with a "Little Waitrose" Its got about 8 parking spots. If you want 20 - 40 charging points, they aint going to fit. And you need somewhere for a couple of dozen people to hang about for 30 - 60 minutes. Those are the kind of practical issues I mean.

I'm sure they aren't insuperable, but I'm struggling to imagine what the solution would look like.

I'm struggling too. But I'm sure of two things. One, it will be solved, soon (within the next few years). Two, the people who solve it have a great opportunity to make a lot of money. My hunch is that self-driving EVs will just drive themselves to the closest available charging point, and then drive themselves back to your front door in time for when you next need them. That way, charging points don't need to be grouped in the way that corner petrol stations are.

In a world of self driving cars the last place I'll want to be is the local school at pick up time Imagine, a fleet of 2-300 autonomous cars descend at 1530h and fight over 100 parking place interwoven with boisterous kiddies wondering which one is their ride home today..... ralph
 
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« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2017, 07:06:44 AM »

I meant the off motorway petrol stations - your corner petrol station if oyu like. Next to my office there's a Shell with a "Little Waitrose" Its got about 8 parking spots. If you want 20 - 40 charging points, they aint going to fit. And you need somewhere for a couple of dozen people to hang about for 30 - 60 minutes. Those are the kind of practical issues I mean.

I'm sure they aren't insuperable, but I'm struggling to imagine what the solution would look like.

Possibly there would be a supermarket near by, so you plug in there, then enjoy a meal or coffee break in their cafe. But as with most things in live, where there is a demand, supply will follow.
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« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2017, 12:45:12 PM »

In a world of self driving cars the last place I'll want to be is the local school at pick up time Imagine, a fleet of 2-300 autonomous cars descend at 1530h and fight over 100 parking place interwoven with boisterous kiddies wondering which one is their ride home today..... ralph
There seems to be an expected confluence between the autonomous cars and ride-sharing apps - which makes a lot of sense to me. The idea is that future cars will have at least some commonality with minibuses rather than the current car design, so that you would expect to see rather fewer cars arriving than you do now, with typically each car taking a fixed route every day to drop off half a dozen kids. Not practicable with current car designs, but I could certainly see ways to rejig the interior layout to let you have half a dozen people getting in and out independently.
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TheFairway
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« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2017, 02:29:16 PM »


In a world of self driving cars the last place I'll want to be is the local school at pick up time Imagine, a fleet of 2-300 autonomous cars descend at 1530h and fight over 100 parking place interwoven with boisterous kiddies wondering which one is their ride home today..... ralph
 
Noone wants to say it, but the solution is easy.

Limit everyone to one child and a whole host of environmental and social problems will greatly diminish.

Ah, like so many easy solutions, there is far more to it than meets the eye. Any numbers/comparitive results from the Chinese version?
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All posts are my own personal thoughts and opinions and do not represent those of my employer, clients or partners.

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