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Author Topic: What news for the "Strata" Building SE1 ?  (Read 1403 times)
MR GUS
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« on: September 20, 2017, 12:16:55 PM »

I was watching a Derren Brown episode frm 2004 on the Southbank where I lived a while & saw a big turbine in the background (wind, not Battersea  Grin ) & went to look it up, ..then the Strata building popped into view..

Whatever happened there in terms of its "anticipated" performance ..I've never heard any more about it, nor in relation to skyscraper based wind turbines since.

Anyone?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strata_SE1

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2010/jul/18/strata-tower-london-green-architecture

(side note, how downmarket & "metro" is the Guardian going, ...a lot of its fillers have been cringeworthy of late)!?

« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 12:18:36 PM by MR GUS » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2017, 12:33:34 PM »

Reddit forums of people who live in or near the tower say that they've not seen, heard or felt the turbines turning since 2010.  The noise and vibration that got transmitted to the expensive top-floor penthouses when they were turning, combined with a very low actual output and an alleged £55k/year maintenance cost meant that they were quietly switched off....
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MR GUS
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Officially "Awesome" because Frotter said so!


« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2017, 09:06:46 PM »

Thanks Dan. I'll go look.
Curiously enough I thought that must have been the case, & wondered why the awards hadn't been rescinded & a whole load in the press (daily mail) ..which actually makes me think someone was paid off, bearing in mind that 2010 was a different era for perceptions towards renewables, turbines, battery powered cars he al.

.daily mail fodder for sure.
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Austroflamm stove & lot's of Lowe alpine fleeces, A "finger" of Solar Sad
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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2017, 05:47:13 PM »

I guess they've found that building mounted wind turbines just dont work at all well. For another example, drive down the M25 beween J12 and 10 and on the West side there is a factory with 8 Vertical Turbines. They havent run now for a good 3 - 4 years. Again, I suspect the vibration is pretty bad.

To be fiar, with any new technology, there will always be stuff which doesnt work - and I can certainly remember a very large push from all sides that building mounted turbines were going to be one of the next big things
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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2017, 05:59:00 PM »

Aah yes I drove past that VAWT installation along the M25 on Saturday- as you say they've not moved for ages, just like the one near the M4 where in the background you have the proper turbine at Sky HQ which works very nicely...
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Nickel2
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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2017, 07:51:26 PM »

That turnip near the M4 at Reading Green Park is run by Eek O'Tricity since 2005, makes 2MW on a good day.

https://www.ecotricity.co.uk/our-green-energy/our-green-electricity/from-the-wind/wind-parks-map

Probably a much better idea than a building incorporated item. I don't think I've ever seen it stationary.
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TheFairway
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2017, 10:28:14 AM »

Watching the Reading turbine spinning effortlessly all morning even in this very moderate breeze.

Which got me wondering, once itís up to speed (approx 4 1/2 counts a full rotation starting count at 1000 so 3 1/2 seconds ish) does it produce the same amount of power no matter how much faster the wind blows - itís rotation seems pretty constant even through peaks and troughs at ground level or is it that itís just in clear are and because of its momentum pretty immune to short term variations in wind speed.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 07:23:34 PM by TheFairway » Logged

-Ian

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All posts are my own personal thoughts and opinions and do not represent those of my former employer, clients or partners.

A.L.
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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2017, 11:23:41 AM »

hello,

Watching the Reading turbine spinning effortlessly all morning even in this very moderate breeze.

Which got me wondering, once itís up to speed (approx 4 1/2 seconds a full rotation) does it produce the same amount of power no matter how much faster the wind blows - itís rotation seems pretty constant even through peaks and troughs at ground level or is it that itís just in clear are and because of its momentum pretty immune to short term variations in wind speed.

I know nothing of the turbine you speak off but most large turbines (>20m diameter) run at constant rpm between 3m/s and 12m/s but produce more power as wind speed rises by altering the blade pitch.
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M
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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2017, 05:30:57 PM »

hello,

Watching the Reading turbine spinning effortlessly all morning even in this very moderate breeze.

Which got me wondering, once itís up to speed (approx 4 1/2 seconds a full rotation) does it produce the same amount of power no matter how much faster the wind blows - itís rotation seems pretty constant even through peaks and troughs at ground level or is it that itís just in clear are and because of its momentum pretty immune to short term variations in wind speed.

I know nothing of the turbine you speak off but most large turbines (>20m diameter) run at constant rpm between 3m/s and 12m/s but produce more power as wind speed rises by altering the blade pitch.

Cool. So does that mean there is some sort of gearing in use?

'My' turbine, the 2.3MW one in SE Cardiff seems to have only 3 speeds.
1. Very, and I mean very, slowly backwards. Probably some form of rocking!
2. About 10rpm.
3. Most of the time, 20rpm (approx 3 secs for a blade to complete a revolution).

I've also wondered if the output is the same throughout the 20rpm period, or if gearing is used to 'extract' more power.

I should also add, almost completely silent even at about 50m when I used to cycle up to have a look at it, last visit did not go so well.  whistlie
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 05:33:19 PM by M » Logged

Just call me Mart.     Cardiff: 5.58kWp PV - (3.58kWp SE3500 + 2kWp SE2200 WNW)
A.L.
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« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2017, 07:38:12 PM »

hello Mart,

Quote
Cool. So does that mean there is some sort of gearing in use?

'My' turbine, the 2.3MW one in SE Cardiff seems to have only 3 speeds.

-Not I think in the sense that you mean, if this is a Siemens SWT-2.3 90m model, used at Whitelees windfarm and common throughout central Scotland it operates at two fixed rpms, 'changing gear' at around 7-8m/s. Obviously there is gearing to get the blade rotational speed up to that needed by the induction motor which is acting as a generator, but it only operates at the two fixed rpms. As the wind speed varies the angle of attack of the blades is altered so that the maximum amount of energy is extracted. This is represented by an increase in the torque available to drive the generator

Quote
I've also wondered if the output is the same throughout the 20rpm period, or if gearing is used to 'extract' more power.

- induction motors are locked to the grid frequency they are powered by, the torque of the turbine tries to turn it faster than this but cannot, the electrical output increases with the torque available

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_generator
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TheFairway
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« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2017, 08:09:29 PM »

Bit late in day for me - didnt understand that Wiki article at all unless it was saying that if the generator runs faster than 1500rpm (synchronous motor speed at 50hz) then the delta slip is what induces the electric charge and the resulting AC will be at the synchronous 50hz frequency.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 09:50:21 AM by TheFairway » Logged

-Ian

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All posts are my own personal thoughts and opinions and do not represent those of my former employer, clients or partners.

Philip R
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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2017, 11:47:15 PM »

If using an induction generator, variable speed could be accomplished by:
A machine winding wound with different numbers of poles, i.e. pole amplitude modulation.

A Two speed gearbox, you need a clutch to facilitate a gearchange, very complex.

A variable speed drive, aloows the machine (generator) to rotate over a wide speed range, thus allowing turbine to optimally use wider range of wind speeds.

As the wind turbine has defined speeds of rotation, I would go for the variable pole amplitude modulation.
Philip R
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M
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« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2017, 07:17:33 AM »

hello Mart,

Quote
Cool. So does that mean there is some sort of gearing in use?

'My' turbine, the 2.3MW one in SE Cardiff seems to have only 3 speeds.

-Not I think in the sense that you mean, if this is a Siemens SWT-2.3 90m model, used at Whitelees windfarm and common throughout central Scotland it operates at two fixed rpms, 'changing gear' at around 7-8m/s. Obviously there is gearing to get the blade rotational speed up to that needed by the induction motor which is acting as a generator, but it only operates at the two fixed rpms. As the wind speed varies the angle of attack of the blades is altered so that the maximum amount of energy is extracted. This is represented by an increase in the torque available to drive the generator

Quote
I've also wondered if the output is the same throughout the 20rpm period, or if gearing is used to 'extract' more power.

- induction motors are locked to the grid frequency they are powered by, the torque of the turbine tries to turn it faster than this but cannot, the electrical output increases with the torque available

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_generator

Many thanks. I don't understand the leccy bit, but that's just because I don't understand leccy, but I think I grasp the theory. So another of life's little questions answered. Cheers.
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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2017, 08:11:38 PM »

The very slow backwards turning is to do with preventing the shaft from bending and the bearings seizing if left still over time. Turning it very slowly (the direction is irrelevant) means you don't get these issues, and the electricity to do so is very cheap.
Unfortunately this means that a particular crashing bore I work with (who I unfortunately have to work quite closely with on some aspects of my job) has been bending my ear about this being a gigantic scam and all the wind turbines in Scotland are being run as gigantic fans to hide the fact that they're totally ineffective. Essentially he's found out about this and jumped to the conclusion that the whole thing is a fake.
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M
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« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2017, 07:42:46 AM »

Thanks, and as said, very slowly backwards. In fact it can only be seen when the blades are close to the tower (for reference) otherwise too slow to notice.

I had a funny conversation about the direction of wind turbines. I said I wasn't sure if they had to go clockwise, but all the ones I've seen, seem to do that. My less than wind friendly park-chatter said he'd seen the local one going counter-clockwise loads of times.

I explained that that would be when the wind is coming from the other direction, but it's too far away to see that the nacelle is facing us. He 'explained' that's still counter-clockwise. I laboured a bad explanation suggesting a watch is clockwise, but if you face it away from yourself the hands would appear to be moving counter-clockwise ... it didn't convince him, but we did have a good laugh at my explanation of hands you can no longer see, moving in a direction that makes no sense and being a non visual optical illusion!  surrender
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