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Author Topic: Ban on gas cookers and boilers by 2050 to hit green targets  (Read 520 times)
RIT
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« on: October 13, 2017, 01:09:01 PM »

http ://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4975676/Ban-gas-cookers-boilers-2050-hit-green-target.html

Now what could go wrong with such a great idea.

The last time I looked at an electric cooker it needed a 45A spur installed and for a Sunday Roast type meal it could draw 32A+ at peak load. As my house has a 60A mains supply and a 60A rated CU things get interesting if the shower was to be used at the same time and a heat pump was operating to keep the home warm.

Its easy to see why many new builds have 100A supplies, but older homes were designed around the idea of a diversity of supply made up of a mix of Gas, Coal and electricity.
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pdf27
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« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2017, 07:28:51 AM »

http ://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4975676/Ban-gas-cookers-boilers-2050-hit-green-target.html

Now what could go wrong with such a great idea.

The last time I looked at an electric cooker it needed a 45A spur installed and for a Sunday Roast type meal it could draw 32A+ at peak load. As my house has a 60A mains supply and a 60A rated CU things get interesting if the shower was to be used at the same time and a heat pump was operating to keep the home warm.

Its easy to see why many new builds have 100A supplies, but older homes were designed around the idea of a diversity of supply made up of a mix of Gas, Coal and electricity.
I've recently put in an electric fan oven and separate induction hob to replace an ancient electric cooker. They're wired into the electrical supply for the previous cooker, but the blurb for both said that they were safe to plug into a standard 13A socket.
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brackwell
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« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2017, 08:52:23 AM »

Just not at the same time. I know someone who had this done by the builders electrician and they were for ever blowing the fuse.
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oliver90owner
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« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2017, 09:21:18 AM »

A single plug or two separate plugs?  A single fan oven should not need more than 3.1kW and clearly the hob is not a monster with half a dozen positions for pans?

Current stand-alone cookers can have two ovens, a hob with four stations and a grill - all on the same spur - plus the likelihood of a 13A outlet on the same circuit.  Hence the 6mm^2 conductors.

If a multitude of appliances were being run off a single 30A ring main, it might be sorely tested.  Oven, hob, diswasher, microwave, kettle, fridge and freezer (both start up loads) and with some kitchens still being used for washing machines and tumble dryers - OOPS!

All of the above run off three separate feeds from the consumer unit, thankyou
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RIT
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2017, 10:59:45 AM »

http ://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4975676/Ban-gas-cookers-boilers-2050-hit-green-target.html

Now what could go wrong with such a great idea.

The last time I looked at an electric cooker it needed a 45A spur installed and for a Sunday Roast type meal it could draw 32A+ at peak load. As my house has a 60A mains supply and a 60A rated CU things get interesting if the shower was to be used at the same time and a heat pump was operating to keep the home warm.

Its easy to see why many new builds have 100A supplies, but older homes were designed around the idea of a diversity of supply made up of a mix of Gas, Coal and electricity.
I've recently put in an electric fan oven and separate induction hob to replace an ancient electric cooker. They're wired into the electrical supply for the previous cooker, but the blurb for both said that they were safe to plug into a standard 13A socket.

Many induction hob units are 13A, 3 pin plug-in units, but the easy of installation results in limitations. A 13A unit will be limited in how much it can draw (2.8kW seems common) and the individual rings/zones may operate upto 1.2kW each. A spur connected hob is likely to have larger rings/zones with a much higher overall draw. It all depends on how much and what type of cooking a household expects to do.

My original example was based around also including a grill and a second oven as that is what  my gas oven has at the moment.
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dimengineer
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2017, 02:08:12 PM »

A Double oven needs a 30A supply, Hobs similar. Together a 45A supply will do.

I do know that in many French Appartments you need to be a bit careful in the Winter, with the heating on, about when and how you use the cooker. Very easy to trip the main breaker.
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2017, 05:18:27 PM »

in france the supply is limited to what you pay for standing order, so 3kw or 6kw base going up to about 9kva after that 3phase.
does make them careful with consumption and reduces infrastructure maybe an idea for the uk?
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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2017, 06:57:55 PM »

Modern induction hobs and fanned ovens need much less power than older units, given thirty years to get prepared it doesn't seem to be a big problem to be honest. That's assuming the Daily Tale have the foggiest idea what they are talking about whistlie

Desp
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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2017, 07:06:22 PM »

in france the supply is limited to what you pay for standing order, so 3kw or 6kw base going up to about 9kva after that 3phase.
does make them careful with consumption and reduces infrastructure maybe an idea for the uk?

That will go down well! Just as the UK Government is pushing everyone towards electric cars and electric households, slap in a huge standing charge for a supply capable of handling such loads.
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dimengineer
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« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2017, 10:03:53 PM »

in france the supply is limited to what you pay for standing order, so 3kw or 6kw base going up to about 9kva after that 3phase.
does make them careful with consumption and reduces infrastructure maybe an idea for the uk?

That will go down well! Just as the UK Government is pushing everyone towards electric cars and electric households, slap in a huge standing charge for a supply capable of handling such loads.

This is indeed the problem with going all electric. Heating and Cars. We shall have to see. Gawd knows how it will pan out. It will be neither as simple or as easy as the Greens claim, nor as difficult as the Mail would have it.
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Philip R
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« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2017, 10:24:32 PM »

I had heard that gas cooking might be banned due to the emissions of carbon monoxide into the kitchen.
Research is ongoing into the longterm effects of CO poisoning. Apparantly some in the know think that CO is dangerous in far lower concentrations / time intervals than what is deemed to be acceptable today.
Grills on cookers in my experiance are pretty high emitters of CO, when in operation. What is worse, is that modern gas appliances grills are absolutely frigging useless.

Kitchen cookers are due for a major overhaul in design. Modern Era ovens, both gas and electric waste heat and require electric fans to keep the cabinets and controls cool.
Gas hob burners are geneallly too big in terms of flame diameter for the size of pan sat on top of them. Need more concentration in the middle zone, without flame interferance. Gas hob burner manufactures take note.

Gas boilers will evolve through absorbtion heat pumps before 2050, so their gas consumption should reduce on a kW gross basis and overall kWh output, due to improved insulation levels in all properties. This latter staement relies on a drastic improvement in insulation standards than is deemed acceptable today.

I would also hope that in 30 years time, all properties in major urban areas will either have a very small heat load or be connected to some district heating intrastructure utilising clean heat. We might even be burning coal using the Allam cycle and sequestering the CO2.

Regarding electrical loading and cutout rating. The French standing charges increase as a powwer of the kVA rating, not in proportion. The UK arrangement positively encourages high loads of low diversity, like the evil electric shower. Saying that I have a dedicated ring main for the kitchen, and a 10mmsq radial feeder for the cooker plate and socket, hob and douuble oven capable.

Without a coherant energy policy, or coherant govermental policy on anything, I cannot understand how HMG can look longterm 32 years and 2.5 months into the future!  
WE have now heard about the petrol and diesel ban by 2040, woodstove ban too in London, maybe. Current 1960/1970 Coal station fleet shutdown by 2023. Lots of statements on doing away with stuff, still not much real substance on replacement and massive expansion of these assets.

Philip R
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djh
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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2017, 10:55:31 PM »

FWIW, my electrician insisted on separate radials for each of: induction hob, single oven, microwave combi oven (despite it being supplied with a 13A plugtop) and a separate ring for the kitchen sockets. He kept muttering 'no diversity'.

I don't think my wife could live with one of the 13A induction hobs, but her best friend has just bought one so we'll no doubt find out how constraining that limit is in practice. For my sins, I chose a 'best buy' Whirlpool hob just before a design flaw became public knowledge. They've replaced all the circuit boards now, so I hope it's alright but I think some people have had them blow twice Sad

FWIW (another thread), my PV is connected directly in to an MCCB in the CU; no RCD. The wiring is surface mounted and beyond the AC isolator it's all armoured (microinverters).
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Cheers, Dave
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