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Author Topic: Underfloor Heating - Negative view  (Read 5676 times)
desperate
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« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2018, 05:33:10 PM »

Been there done that Biff, these sales reps job is to sell stuff, they don't give a monkeys about what the client or builder actually needs or wants. UFH should be nice and simple built with standard components from your local plumbing shop but they very rarely are, all these fancy manifolds, actuators, flow gauges and what-not are designed to increase profits it does very little for the end users or installers to be honest.

Desp
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renewablejohn
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« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2018, 07:33:29 PM »

Just at the stage of ripping up the floor to install UFH. The Listed Building consent specified a Limecrete foamed glass insulation and if we found original flags then we would have to reuse them. Have taken up the carpet and a leveling screed to find a cracking flag floor. Only one major broken slab and a couple with corners knocked off. I presume these can be repaired. UFH will be a wet system in the screed above the compressed foamed glass. Was keeping my options open with electric mat above the screed then relay the flags. Wet system powered by a rerouting of the existing Dunsley Yorkshire boiler. The electric mats long term powered by solar and a small hydro system. Any suggestions on how to do it. Will be starting with the snug for practice approx 6 mtr x 4 mtr.
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titan
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« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2018, 08:05:41 PM »

Been there done that Biff, these sales reps job is to sell stuff, they don't give a monkeys about what the client or builder actually needs or wants. UFH should be nice and simple built with standard components from your local plumbing shop but they very rarely are, all these fancy manifolds, actuators, flow gauges and what-not are designed to increase profits it does very little for the end users or installers to be honest.

Desp

UFH is simple, the manifold, actuators and flow meters are required for effective set up and running. It is impossible to vent and balance the loops without them. Of course you can just bury some pipe in the screed and hope for the best might save a few quid. The manifold I have was cheaper than using standard fittings.. Why rely on sales reps there is plenty of information out there even the main manufactures provide guides.
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biff
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« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2018, 10:48:07 PM »

I agree Titan,
             However back then those things were hens teeth and not freely available. As for bleeding the system,,that was the simplest job of all, The mains was looped through it and bled next to the honeywell 3 port Valve with it,s own outlet and bleeding valve + drain hose. In fact it took up much less room than the manifolds back then.
 It is totally different now with multiple suppliers. The one and only supplier back then was not easy to talk to because they had the market cornered. They were also very expensive.
  I recall one area 2.5 mtrs x 4 mtrs ready for the floor screeders, All they had to do was walk in and clip the pipes to the insulation and just leave two tails and a manifold and that was 840.00n+vat. The floor layers were waiting to finish up. That was just one part of the job. I thought at the time I was getting badly screwed over and did not like it at all. Kitech did me one hell of a favor. The client was really pleased.
  The Plumber and I used to get two tickets well in advance and  drive the 300+ mile round trip to the Birmingham trade fairs each year. It was an exciting time. Hepworth was just on the market and other manufacturers were starting to make barrier pipes as well. Don,t worry, there were plenty of foul up with these grab rings and different pipe width standards ( Color coded Grab rings) but I seemed to be lucky. That was the thing about my Italian fitting, they never blew off and they could be rearranged very easily. Nowaday, You just walk into B N Q and take the quick fit off the shelf, knowing you have the most foolproof fitting on the market which are also re usable.My plumber was a good one and eventually converted to Plastic hysteria, I used to rag him about that, He is a Born again Christian but I used to tell him , that if I could turn him into a plastic plumber,, I could also turn him into an atheist like me. "H,mmmm" he would say. smirking, Pushing his glasses up his nose with a greasy finger,,
       I blether,
                   Biff
                                 
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desperate
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« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2018, 10:58:36 PM »

The thing is you can buy a 6 way manifold complete with auto air vent and flow meters for the princely sum of about 275 quid plus VAT. Question:- Why would you do that when essentially you can acheive the same outcome with 13 end feed tees, a bleed valve, 6 gate valves and a length of pipe??

OK and a bit of solder and a puff of gas........

Answer, because the salesmen have done their job  facepalm

Don't fall for it.

On the question of balancing, buy a food probe thermometer for about a tenner,

Flow gauges? how many of them can you still see through after a couple of years, or aren't stuck solid.

Desp
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rogeriko
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« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2018, 11:22:30 PM »

If you have a pump and mixing valve you can feed it with whatever temperature water you want and it will regulate to 32 degrees or so. This one is only 400 and it will do 6 rooms. You dont need thermostats and actuators in every room just one main thermostat to turn the pump on and off then each room is balanced by the taps on the bottom row. Just add the pipework cover with screed and connect the hot water.

http://underfloorheatingexpress.com/2-12-ports-underfloor-heating-manifold-kit.html?gclid=CjwKCAiAt8TUBRAKEiwAOI9pADlhKCAWQ6wFcWNomky4GT79rOI9S306g-I_2o7zK7OeilRUj7S2MBoCdY0QAvD_BwE




* underfloor.jpg (64.11 KB, 864x540 - viewed 511 times.)
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biff
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« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2018, 09:20:33 AM »

Wow Roger, !!
          That is cheap and a Grundfos pump as well for 99.00.
  Desp,,You simply cannot pass that one up, even if you were not presently installing UFH you could store  a dozen or so under the bed in readyness for the next UFH job.
   It has been ages since I did any buldling or plumbing jobs and I am not likely to be doing any in the future but they should have been selling that gear for that price when iI was in business. Grin
                                 Biff
 
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renewablejohn
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« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2018, 10:55:00 AM »

If you have a pump and mixing valve you can feed it with whatever temperature water you want and it will regulate to 32 degrees or so. This one is only 400 and it will do 6 rooms. You dont need thermostats and actuators in every room just one main thermostat to turn the pump on and off then each room is balanced by the taps on the bottom row. Just add the pipework cover with screed and connect the hot water.

http://underfloorheatingexpress.com/2-12-ports-underfloor-heating-manifold-kit.html?gclid=CjwKCAiAt8TUBRAKEiwAOI9pADlhKCAWQ6wFcWNomky4GT79rOI9S306g-I_2o7zK7OeilRUj7S2MBoCdY0QAvD_BwE




So if I wanted to revamp my central heating which is heated by a Dunsley Yorkshire wood boiler with the upstairs keeping the thermostat controlled radiators but I presume the downstairs radiators replaced by 4 zone UFH I presume controlled by a manifold like this. Would it simply be a case of feed the upstairs radiators first then use the return from the radiators as the feed in to the UFH heating the return going back to the boiler. All pipe is plastic apart from stainless flexible connection to boiler. Radiators are steel.
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desperate
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« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2018, 04:33:00 PM »

Roger, only 400 quid?? why for crying out loud? As I said earlier you can achieve the same effect for about 50 quid or less using standard fitting from a plumbers merchant.

RJ,

you IMHO should tee of the flow from whatever heatsource you want, fit a zone valve, then a pump and a TMV. Take the blended flow from the tmv and feed your UFH branched to as many rooms as you need, tee all the returns together and run it back to the heating return with a branch going to the cool inlet of the TMV. If you are canny you can get all those bits for less than a couple of hundred excluding the UF pipe loopery .

Alternatively you could buy shiney new proprietry kit for 600 quid or more wackoold

Good luck whichever route you go, it was the best thing we did here.

Desp
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desperate
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« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2018, 04:38:07 PM »

Wow Roger, !!
          That is cheap and a Grundfos pump as well for 99.00.
  Desp,,You simply cannot pass that one up, even if you were not presently installing UFH you could store  a dozen or so under the bed in readyness for the next UFH job.
   It has been ages since I did any buldling or plumbing jobs and I am not likely to be doing any in the future but they should have been selling that gear for that price when iI was in business. Grin
                                 Biff
 

Absolutely Biff, over the years I have installed loads of UFH systems, never yet purchased all that fancy overpriced BS, we are doing one next week or so in a kitchen and living room powered by a combi presently heating six rads in the rest of the house.(Shameless plug alert) Piccys may well be available on our website whistlie

Desp
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linesrg
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« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2018, 06:04:46 PM »

Good Evening All,

As I found out a potential problem with these manifolds with integral pumps is that they suck up all the available flow. Thus with both my old LPG condensing boiler and, until we changed it, the GSHP, every time the solenoids opened for the kitchen UFH the flow to the rest of the house ceased (and that was with the integral pump on its minimum setting).

I have to agree I can't see the flow meters on the kitchen loops after  4- 5 years but then the one on the Solar ET system is jammed...........

Regards

Richard
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1.28kW on a Lorentz ETATRACK1000 + 1.44kW/ SB3000TL-21 (FIT), 1.28kW/ SB1700 (ROO/FIT). CTC GSi12 heat pump/Ecosol/Flowbox 8010e/Gledhill ASL0085 EHS/3off Navitron 4720AL Solar ET & Immersun T1060/T1070/T1090. 3.375kW/ SMA SB3600TL-21 and a Sunny Island 4.4M-12 c/w 15.2kWh battery and a Renault Zoe.
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« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2018, 09:31:19 PM »



So if I wanted to revamp my central heating which is heated by a Dunsley Yorkshire wood boiler with the upstairs keeping the thermostat controlled radiators but I presume the downstairs radiators replaced by 4 zone UFH I presume controlled by a manifold like this. Would it simply be a case of feed the upstairs radiators first then use the return from the radiators as the feed in to the UFH heating the return going back to the boiler. All pipe is plastic apart from stainless flexible connection to boiler. Radiators are steel.
[/quote]

I wouldnt put it on the return from the radiators, there will be many problems doing it that way. Just plumb it in parrallel with the radiators because it dosnt matter what temperature the incoming flow is. It could be from solar thermal, a woodstove or a combi boiler. Also you will find when the downstairs slab is warm you wont be needing much heat upstairs. On a sunny day like today with 6 or 8 solar thermal panels you could heat the whole floor up which would stay warm overnight. Thats why you dont need room thermostats on underfloor heating because of the delay in heating the floor and then the floor heating the room. All you need is water at 28 degrees plus and the next day the house will be toasty. You can turn down the flow taps to each loop/room to about 2/3 litres a minute so you do not starve the radiators upstairs.
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Bikerzz
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« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2018, 10:42:23 AM »

Why can none of you guys live near Warwickshire!
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desperate
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« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2018, 05:33:51 PM »

Why can none of you guys live near Warwickshire!

I do sometimes, sister and mum in law live in Kenilworth.

Desp
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Bikerzz
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« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2018, 08:03:33 PM »

If they know someone that will take on underfloor heating a 100m2 downstairs home that doesnt involve Me and Mrs moving out for 4 weeks let me know.  Angry Huh
At this rate I will try and do it myself...........

Half is Block and Beam, Half is Timber, I have spare height everywhere (tho not sure how much in some as some floors are lower then others so they nice and easy). Decor I dont care as just bought and its all a mess, needs wiring and plumbing. No need to make good just do the flooring. They wont do half and half and I cant work out why. Loads of space center of house under stairs for a manifold (Its a double staircase so I was thinking even a thermal store there too)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 08:15:46 PM by Bikerzz » Logged

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