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Author Topic: cant fully charge 40kwh rolls surrette series 5000 48v battery system.... ..  (Read 8698 times)
markini5
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« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2018, 12:51:19 AM »

cant upload mine for some reason...
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biff
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« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2018, 09:15:51 AM »

H,mmmmmmmm,
             This is interesting
    "White lies"   Oh we nearly missed that .
        I will return!!
                               Biff
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Tiff
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« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2018, 10:05:57 AM »


For VAWT I'm guessing you have seen the Ed Lenz design?

http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/articles/Lenz2.asp
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offthegridandy
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« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2018, 11:30:53 AM »

Hi Marki,

If you have cracked the perenial VWT design issues then I assure you we will all cheer you along.  Please show us lots of piccys as you build and please publish some actual data showing wind speeds and power production when the machine is up and running.

BTW Hughes view on VWT is in my opinion totally evidence based.  He's has been around the world many times working on projects that suit the working (hu)man, creating a light in the darkness. Over the years I believe he's looked into a great many VWT schemes some costing millions of dollars and yet when the results are shown the costs don't appear to justify the returns.

I'm sure that Hugh would love you to succeed and will be the first to cheer when you do.

From my own experience wind turbulence is a right bustard. Due to our local topography I had to re site my WT 3 times to find the sweet spot.  The 1st 2 spots gave me a turbine that was constantly hunting and yawing yet now we've got the right spot the WT sits in the prevailing wind all day.  I don't have any slip rings on the WT and only have to unwind a couple of cable twists every year.

 Ditto Tiff

Good luck to you.

Andy

 
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markini5
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« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2018, 01:42:43 PM »

Hi Tiff,  no this isn't the design,    i will try and find it now.
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Tiff
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« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2018, 01:54:41 PM »

Andy, not really sure I understand the point you are making.

The VAWT design has been 'cracked' many times in various forms, in that there are a few different designs that work. And by work, I mean they can capture energy from the wind and generate electricity. A few companies have dabbled with producing them commerically, not with much success (Britwind and Quiet revolution spring to mind).

Of course if you have a good site for a WT then no one in their right mind would go for a VAWT when a HAWT is so much more efficient.

For a backyard project, if you are handy at DIY and like building things then why not a VAWT? Provided your expectations are at the right level then I don't see a problem with it. I get the impression that Marki knows its not going to generate hardly anything, it's not like the pour girl suckered into promoting the VAWT on Facebook that is the most obvious peice of garbage ever.

And if I was going to try a VAWT, then then Lenz2 design is certainly the one I would go for. Unfortuntely his website seems to be down these days but there is a short research paper on the design:

https://www.epj-conferences.org/articles/epjconf/pdf/2017/12/epjconf_efm2017_02150.pdf
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Tiff
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« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2018, 02:00:17 PM »

Marki, just so long as its not this one that has found fame in the other thread:

http://www.elquatoruk.com/
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markini5
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« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2018, 02:24:19 PM »

this is one design im interested in .  





i know the general limitations, im not expecting to power a city with it lol    though rules are made to be broken    500w at 48v  is my expectations  from something approx 2000mm tall  by  1200mm width.    
im an aerospace tig welder/sheet metal  and worked in airbus assembly section for a bit when my welding (Rolls Royce turbine engine manufacturering dried up  with vast skills  that i can utilize to manufacturer a working prototype... i have an 200a AC/DC tig welder at home  and industrial 50ltr pure argon  at 230bar pressure that i rent..    im always tinkering with projects and would like to try a make it work for me......    if it works i may make more on the side of work and sell them  ...  
im always thinking about the wind i get here which is above normal due to location   and between our houses its like a wind tunnel  even had shrubs ripped out the ground, tried propping them with metal support rods only for them to bend in the wind...

looking for different type i came across last year...    

how many times have the nay sayers been proved wrong through history... most recent example   battery powered cars would never work......   even with lipo cells with offer 1000's of cycles  their is a battery that puts even lifepo4 to shame that can do 50,000 cycles with even faster charging times and far great density of power    lithium titanate oxid  its been around a while   though i guess businesses dont want to make batteries that can out live us, they want us buying replacements  


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markini5
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« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2018, 02:31:54 PM »

No Tiff,  not that either its fairly conventional design     

cant find this other type, it utilizes HAWT Rotor  in an vawt situ   wind flows up the bottom  and out the top.   and has solar cells fitted to its body.     more complex to make the cone shape body.
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billi
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« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2018, 02:49:14 PM »

Quote
i cant fully charge them,  my 3kw 12 panel array  isn't anywhere near enough to charge these fully

Morningstar TriStar 60a mppt charge controller.   batt temp and voltage sense are fitted and accurate.


im using rolls batt charge profile  for regular cycling/psoc  but just not enough amps  to get voltage to target voltage regulation, only on clear sunny days will this happen,  but didnt finish absorb as clouds came over and daylight was diminisihng .     absorb charge his been triggered at over 40 amps  after prelonged periods of hovering near to it...

problem with this is as they are close to full charge they are gasing  and drinking excessive water .    everyday average voltage hovers around 58 - 61    20 - 30 amps  and on the odd clear sky  amps went to 49amps    few mins later absorb target reached.

after 12 hours rest no loads on, voltage was 51.2v   batt temp 9 degree c

I still dont get this.... ,  are you saying the average voltage is   upto 61 Volt  and still no or only occasional  absorbtion charge starts   ?  and drinking excessive water  ? 

Sure  the  charging Voltage should be slightly higher in winterwhen batts are colder  , but if they are gasing then they are definatly not cold  whistlie



Billi

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Tiff
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« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2018, 02:59:24 PM »


I still think the Lenz is better than any of the 'ducted' types and with your skill set you could make one that would be a work of art (if it doesn't work then at least it would look good).

500w - maybe, on the windiest day of the year. I would guess at more like 250w on a very windy day.

Maybe start another thread just for the VAWT? We could have a sweepstake with guesses on the output. I would be very interested to folow the build and see the results. I've watched plenty embark on these builds but sadly when it gets to the best part - the end results you often never hear from them again.

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markini5
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« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2018, 06:23:08 PM »

Billi, 

its temp adjusted +/- 5millivolt per c  degree   baseline figure is 60.00v at 25 c which is higher than other types such as l16, charger didn't have settings via dipswitch for my type of batteries  co had to use custom settings... 

when you say 61v   you haven't considered batt temp at that moment in time.     as far as im aware these will gas regardless of normal operating batt temp  what makes them gas   is approaching full charge.

as others have pointed out above comments, i dont have enough PV input power to complete absorption stage   unless its a sunny clear day

what is happening with mine is PV input  is too intermittent often pushing bulk voltage very close to absorption without achieving it  causing prolonged   gassing   all day

ive now changed setting for infrequent cycling/backup use which requires less voltage making a complete charge cycle more likely until  i get more solar panels and/or purchase eltek psu.

im glad they are proving difficult to charge rather than easy to charge and rapidly hit voltage  as that would tell me they have lost their capacity. 
hope this makes sense.
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biff
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« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2018, 07:05:44 PM »

It is nice to read the comments here on Vawts,
                                   Some 6 or 7 years back, i was very taken with the idea. i got this notion in my head that I could build a Vawt that would be comparable or better than the Hawts and I worked at it in the evenings until i had the makings of a plan. You see, a lot of Vawts are wide and if they are wide they are impossible to balance in other words quick revolutions are not really obtainable. It is the nature of the beast, you cannot balance then. Then the returning blades create resistance, even if they are shaped to deflect the wind,,they still create resistance, so no matter what way you look at it, you have only one blade driving at a time. This was a shock to me to be honest, so i created an exhaust and a scoop and then a shroud that dropped down over the blades and a tail with a large fin that directed the scoop into the wind at the right angle.The blades were only 4 inches wide x 5ft long, slightly curved but there was a gap between the inside of the blade and the central pivot. I had read that when the air passed through the gap it went out the exhaust but not before it gave the blades a second push,,
 Like a lot of my projects, i built a ply and cardboard model of it. When it was done. I sat down and measured the blade area of my four spokes of blades,,Only one blade could deliver power at a time.
Then I looked up at my Yang Shen which was milling away in a force 6 at the time, it was silent, It was efficient and each of the 3 blades balanced each other out, all working together, It was cruising and clocking approx 900 to 1200 watt ..Perfect. I remember that night, sitting down with Mrs Biff and showing her my drawings like I have done many times before, I pointed out that the single blade on the Vawt,was doing all the work, one at a time. I would have to compromise all kinds of rules. It would weigh over twice as much easily as a Hawt of twice the power, However, there are low speed sail types of 1000year old Chinese designs that clonk slowly along but have massive torque. They are exceedingly clever and then my longing for my own Vawt slowly ebbed away. I am glad that I stopped. I got to know quite a few folks that had these vawts installed professionally,  5 kw jobbies and each and every one of them was a shocking failure,,a waste of money,,some were putting out as little as 400 to 500 watt at their best, for an outlay of 6,000euros. I remember Martin Rubbishing them big time but silently I was going to build a beezer.
  There was one German chap who has a Savonius Hawt sitting on the ground with it,s support welded to an old truck rim. A bracket that supported a 12v Alternator was also welded to the rim and the Savonius , two  offset barrel halfs were spinning around like mad, The alternator was driven by a bycicle tire that was attached to the very bottom of the Vawt, It was noisy and lumpy but goodness he showed me the voltmeter on the battery pack and it was filling the clock. The only thing i had against it was that it was a dangerous article. He had 3 small blond haired kids darting about and the sharp unprotected cut edges of the half barrels were wizzing around and liable to slice a lump of anyone who stumbled over them in the dark. R was a clever lad. He had a job at a local filling station as a mechanic but after a few years it was noted that a lot of his customers were not buying fuel or buying very little. He was in fact supplying the weed, his own brand.  back then some 35 years ago, that was heresy, The wimmin could all fall pregnanant and the men could all go sterile. The 3rd time he got caught, he was charged and life changed for him but not before I swopped him my long wheel based Landy for his Merc. He came back and complained to me that the Landy was getting stuck everywhere. I had to agree, it was the worst machine that i had ever had on bad ground and we agreed that if he kept it on the hard road it would be OK. It had big gripping tires allround. It was a pig of a machine. I was delighted to see the back of it. R got lifted and finally disappeared. his wife and children moved into town to be near the schools. His little cottage up on the mountain lay deserted for a few years, then a certain farmer took his Savonius  and plopped it at the outside corner of his byre. He had bought the batteries and all. It was there for about a fortnight and when one evening the wife came out to shout to him that the dinner was ready, it was blowing a gale and R,s Savonius was spinning like a top. Apparently she walked to close to it in the dark and it was a 2 months before she would let him near her again. R,s Savonius ended up in the midden that same night. He came down to my yard for many a visit and he reconned that the Germans were dangerous people. "Dee yee know" says he "They built them U2s and sent them over to bomb London. I replied that U2 was in Dubln. "No way he said,,they never reached there."
   So if you are still listening and have not fallen asleep, have a go at the two barrel halfs, on the lorry rim and a lucas 3 point alt. You can tack a bicycle wheel to the bottom of the half barrels and the soft tire will drive the splined pulley. R stopped it with a wooden baton pulled with a rope on a hinge, The baton pressed on the tire till it stopped, then he jammed it. He was quite proud of it and i have seen it working perfectly, so there is no gambling involved.

                    Biff
 
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 07:08:51 PM by biff » Logged

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markini5
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« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2018, 09:30:03 PM »

lovely story Biff  hysteria       im still going to have ago,

but not that scrapyard challenge one you mentioned,   mine will be ducted  completely hidden from sight   stops any complaints to council as no one will clock on what it is..

that one this German friend of your did has been done thousands of times  lots of vids on youtube showing failure after failure    as they haven't understand... one used  12v car alternator    which sounds like your friend did the same thing...   these do not produce anything like what is needed at low rpm   

purpose made PMA is required  directly fitted  no drive trains that take away damn/momentum
if cant buy one then make one with resin, annealed copper wire  for coils, ferrite magnets low cost, or neo mags best but very costly. .   twin rotors so magnets below and above stator ..

vawt  should be made to fine tolerances    using materials such at t6 grade aluminium   keeping weight to a minimum  to allow low wind start up and allow quick reaction to gusty conditions.   

i would make a template for the blades   with an aerofoil profile     having the turbine in an enclosure will reduce drag, improve airflow  and possible to increase air speed with shaping air entry ducts

ive got space for upto 3000mm width  and 1800mm height if need be..   
                                                                                                                                       
or make an upside down hawt   that is housed in a cone  similar shape to a jet engine cone.  ...   as air moves across the the turbine  it will be drawn upwards  propelling the rotor.    i still cant think what this vawt was called...   i seen these installed along a pier  with lights installed, solar panels  and equipment mounted inside for networking wifi.
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biff
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« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2018, 09:18:21 AM »

I cannot find the link to the Chinese irrigation sail wind powered pump,
                                It was a system of 4 sails ,each approx 12ft high that revolved around a large turntable, The direction of the wind pushed the sails to lock their bases in position with a system of greased wooden blocks that slid back and forth, clonking as they moved. But still that meant that only one 12ft sail was driving the pump at a time. The beauty of this machine was that the parts were all wood and a form of canvas was used for the sails. I did not see it working but saw a 3D version of the wooden blocks in action. They turned slow and would have been used to irrigate the paddy fields.
 There are more kinds of wind turbine designs in China than in any other part of the world. This design is over one thousand years old. The first PC was designed and built by a Greek engineer called Heron who built slot machines for the Egyptians who installed them in the foyers of their temples. These slot machines were "pay per view" and ran for 20 minutes showing a form of clockwork theater. Heron was mostly concerned with building war and breaking sieges.
                                          Biff
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