London Electric Taxis on the road

[dan_b]

Saw one on the M3 this morning heading Westbound - they're significantly larger than the TX4s!  The driver wasn't hanging about either, they've definitely got some grunt.

[Mudman]

i see several a day at the moment. its a minor lift to my spirits when i do!

[dan_b]

So I got to ride in the electric London Taxi last night 

As a paying customer, they are light years ahead of the old cabs - inside they are  large and airy (panoramic glass roof) with a lot of space inside - can actually seat 6 now not 5. The ride quality is excellent; smooth and firm and not crashy at all.  They have air conditioning too, so no steaming up when getting in from the rain (as I was last night).  And of course, it's so quiet!  The electric drive is another world from the noise and vibration from the old diesel models.   Massive step forward.

The thing I wish I hadn't done though was ask the cabbie what he thought. OMG.  I got subjected to a 25min monologue of all the things that was wrong with the vehicle.  He hated the autonomous emergency braking - claimed it took away his skills as a professional driver (!) - complained about the perspex screen letting through too much passenger noise, complained about the sat nav being there at all as of course he has the Knowledge, and complained that the mirrors were too small!!  All of which I took to be griping and I basically ignored.  His two main complaints though which I thought were perfectly valid were this:
1. price - it's a hugely expensive vehicle. He said even though he sees a £90-100 lower running cost due to the electric drive, it's a heck of a price and that's putting cabbies off buying/leasing it - but they have no other options as no other Taxis currently meet the emissions requirements.

2. battery range. He was infuriated by the battery range - he said he's lucky to get 50 miles on full EV mode and so has to rely on the generator a lot during the day - because of course there are not very many public fast chargers around in London and in any case he doesn't want to spend time stood charging when he could be driving or picking up another fare.    I must admit I thought that the small battery was a design issue right from the start as it would force the drivers to rely on the genny and fast charging and therefore create/perpetuate the idea that BEVs don't work - and it seems that's the case.  Perhaps they'll make the battery bigger soon, or go for a full BEV at some point?  It's only a 20kWh pack and has the petrol engine up front...

Anyway, glad I got to ride in one - they are a huge step forward, but it's currently a flawed compromise with the battery size I think.

[kristen]

1. price - it's a hugely expensive vehicle

I think the whole EV price thing is an early-adopter issue. Need more economies of scale, and some scientific breakthrough / bring-to-market to both increase energy density, and thereby lower weight or increase range, and reduce price.

Sorry : stating the obvious.

he sees a £90-100 lower running cost due to the electric drive

A month? My back-of-envelope is that BEV compared to ICE saves £100 a month (on fuel) per 10,000 miles driven per annum. Depends on MPG comparison of course.

(Rough calculations: BEV does 3 miles per kWh, E7 around £0.08p per kWh [Tide is 6p I think?]. NextGen EV likely to get to around 4 miles per kWh - this is motorway speeds, not granny-driving )

Fuel cost saving may not pay for extra initial capital cost, but higher mileage drivers have more gain.  Someone driving 30,000 miles p.a. has £300 more per month to add to finance package. No idea what mileage a London Cabbie drives.

In terms of pollution etc. the choice will be to pay more for an EV or to pay a penalty e.g. Carbon Tax - for an ICE.

2. battery range. He was infuriated by the battery range - he said he's lucky to get 50 miles on full EV mode

I think PHEV may be the way to go for the next decade.

My EV does 220 real word miles. Commute is 80 miles per day, and I drive more than 220 miles a couple of days a month. Personally I would buy 300+ miles of range when it becomes available (not that charging is a pain, with ICE I used to spend more than 8 hours a year on forecourts filling up ... but I'd like the ability to "just do that unexpected journey")

But I think my requirement is selfish. I'm using less than 40% on my battery daily, and if instead 3 PHEV cars had a 1/3rd size of my battery they would be fully used on close to 100% of drive-days, and that would accelerate pollution-reduction and switch to Electricity.

A PHEV also takes away any range anxiety, and I think would ease the transition for Mr and Mrs Average Consumer. Also for car dealerships / maintenance.

[brackwell]

That fuel cost saving is per week perhaps   https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/10572289/New-electric-black-cab-could-save-drivers-200-per-week.html

They definitely do more than 20K miles /yr and often nearer 30K in the S.E.

Then you have to factor in lower maintenance and wear % tear.

Perhaps maths was not perhaps this taxi drivers forty.

Ken

[splyn]

That fuel cost saving is per week perhaps   https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/10572289/New-electric-black-cab-could-save-drivers-200-per-week.html

They definitely do more than 20K miles /yr and often nearer 30K in the S.E.

Then you have to factor in lower maintenance and wear % tear.

Perhaps maths was not perhaps this taxi drivers forty.

Ken

You seem to have missed this bit:

He was infuriated by the battery range - he said he's lucky to get 50 miles on full EV mode and so has to rely on the generator a lot during the day - because of course there are not very many public fast chargers around in London and in any case he doesn't want to spend time stood charging when he could be driving or picking up another fare.

I took that to mean that most, if not all, of his daily mileage after the first 50 was powered from the petrol generator. The average daily mileage of a black cab is 120 miles according to the Grauniad - the Telegraphs 200 miles/day figure may apply to London minicabs. So 70 miles running on petrol at approx 36.7mpg (according to wiki). The claimed range is 80 miles from a 31kWh battery however so perhaps his 20kWh battery is an early model. It will be interesting to find out what the real world range is for most cabbies - averaged out over the battery lifetime (given the capacity loss over time).

Given that there is no penalty for using the generator in the ULEZ, the cab driver seems to have decided that it's not worth recharging during the day, the down time cost exceeding the petrol cost.

[GarethC]

A 30-40kWh, 75-100 mile range extender seems the ideal to me right now. 90% of trips on leccy only, and still a big chunk of longer trips. No range anxiety and ok even if you don't have off street parking to charge at (if you can charge at work or elsewhere during the day). Easily fully charged on even a low output charger overnight, and fully charged in less than an hour on fairly common rapid chargers. Probably low maintenance costs as the ICE engine won't get many miles put on it.

Annoyed there's STILL only the overpriced, impractically small BMW i3 in this bracket (apart from these taxis of course).

[kristen]

50 miles @ 36.7mpg and £1.30 per Litre = £8.04

50 miles @ 3 miles / kWh and E7 £0.08p = £1.33 saving £6.71 per day, or £0.134 per mile driven Electric rather than Fossil

(might do better than that pottering around London; no fuel used whilst stationary at a Red light and much less keeping warm reading the paper at a Rank than having an engine-running   )

So 120 miles of which 50 miles Battery is 42% Electric = £560 saved per 10,000 miles driven.  Not great.

100% electric would be £1,340 saving per 10,000 miles  and nearly £27,000 saved at 200,000 miles.

I can't find a price for a new TX4. 2nd hand, 3-4 years old, 100K / 50K miles looked to be around £25K, so I'm guessing £50K new? and if so a brand new electric TX at £40-£60K (depending on brand), before £7,500 rebate, is not be significantly more, let alone taking the fuel saving into account.

[dan_b]

Pleased to see this today in my home town - the 2nd EV taxi I’ve seen in Richmond and the 1st vehicle to use this TfL-installed rapid charge point (which is reserved for EV taxis only).
Walked back 45mins later and the cab had gone so clearly sucked up enough juice.
There’s a taxi rank 100m round the corner at the Railway station.

[dan_b]

The TX4 is no longer made, it has been replaced by the new Electric one. That just happens to be the only new vehicle that passes the current TfL regulations for Black Cabs for zero emissions, passenger facilities and turning circle.

50 miles @ 36.7mpg and £1.30 per Litre = £8.04

50 miles @ 3 miles / kWh and E7 £0.08p = £1.33 saving £6.71 per day, or £0.134 per mile driven Electric rather than Fossil

(might do better than that pottering around London; no fuel used whilst stationary at a Red light and much less keeping warm reading the paper at a Rank than having an engine-running   )

So 120 miles of which 50 miles Battery is 42% Electric = £560 saved per 10,000 miles driven.  Not great.

100% electric would be £1,340 saving per 10,000 miles  and nearly £27,000 saved at 200,000 miles.

I can't find a price for a new TX4. 2nd hand, 3-4 years old, 100K / 50K miles looked to be around £25K, so I'm guessing £50K new? and if so a brand new electric TX at £40-£60K (depending on brand), before £7,500 rebate, is not be significantly more, let alone taking the fuel saving into account.

[phoooby]

Re the cost savings. I assume Taxi's previously had an exemption from CC and perhaps that will come to an end meaning another £10 (or is it £12 now) saved per day over running an old diesel.

[dan_b]

Currently all Licensed taxis and "Private hire vehicles" (minicabs, usually Priuses!) are exempt from the London Congestion Charge.

[dan_b]

Biggest day of electric black cab spotting to date - saw 5 on the road yesterday

[Barrie]

More success for the LEVC TX4 black cab

https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/london-cab-approved-for-use-in-paris/

[dan_b]

There are over 500 electric black cabs out on the streets of London now

https://www.levc.com/corporate/news/500-electric-taxis-in-london/